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Cant win anymore- Top Pr w draw on turn

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Bart in the past stated sometimes you should chk back top pr if you have a good draw on the turn so you dont get bet off your draw.

So I played live 2-5 and this hand happened:
2-5 Game and I have 250 OTB. Limped to me. I raise to 20 w Kh10h otb. 4 callers - $100 in the pot. Flop is KdJc8h. Chked t0 me. I bet 50 into 100. BB calls. Everyone else folds. Turn is 2h. Chked to me. I chk. River is Ac. BB leads for 50 into 200. I’m getting 5 -1 so I call and hes a young guy who looks like a bluffer. Main thing is my check on the turn. My reasons are as follows. I only have $150 left with $200 in the pot. I’m probably only getting called by better with hands like AK, KQ, and KJ since I’d be all in on the turn PLS if he chk raises me I pretty much have to call since I’ll have odds since I’m on the flush draw and wanted to protect my stack. If I’m deep I should bet the turn I’m sure but of course I get raised off my draw also plus with stack sizes that why I chked back. DO you bet turn in the shallow spot? What about deep? He ended up having AJ (Hit 2 pr on river).

So I'm mad I didn't bet the turn but most likely only better is calling and I'm protecting my stack but I felt I shoudlve called.

Later on after losing at the casino I go play on line and the same situation came up and this time I say ok I'm going to bet the turn:

Merge, $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (CO): $197 (98.5 bb)
BTN: $216.25 (108.1 bb)
SB: $81 (40.5 bb)
BB: $274.78 (137.4 bb)
UTG+1: $370.80 (185.4 bb)
UTG+2: $108.55 (54.3 bb)
MP1: $205.15 (102.6 bb)
MP2: $344.22 (172.1 bb)
MP3: $194.42 (97.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Kh 6h
UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $4, 3 folds, Hero calls $4, BTN calls $4, SB calls $3, BB calls $2

Flop: ($20) 8s Ks 2h (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $13.33, BTN folds, SB calls $13.33, 2 folds

Turn: ($46.66) 3h (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $31.10, SB raises to $63.67 and is all-in, Hero calls $32.57

River: ($174) 4s (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $174 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: 8s Ks 2h 3h 4s
Hero showed Kh 6h and lost (-$81 net)
SB showed 8c 8d and won $171 ($90 net)

SO I guess I'm being results oriented and chking the turn is ok given the stack sizes on the turn. So frusttrating though - been runnin bad lately.

Comments

  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    The check back tp and a draw doesn't matter when shallow. It's actually terrible to do so. Don raise pf in the live hand and just shove turn.

    As for online Hand fold pf. Don't play shitty hands for a raise.

    Play smaller. I don't wanna sound like a sick but you aren't ready for how high you are playing.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Live hand: It's tough to play this hand profitably with 50BB from any position. You are committing yourself to a weak top pair when you hit it given that you have les than a PSB on the turn. Protecting your stack doesn't come into play when you have 30BBs left. You should just shove. If he has 2p+, you have outs (as long as he doesn't have the nut heart draw).

    The online hand: fold pre AINEC. K6s is garbage. If you insist on playing that hand, 3B pre-flop, but I don't recommend it. You are forced to fold to a 4B
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,464Subscriber
    Regarding the live hand - I dont like your raise given your stack size, but since you did, it should be larger in that spot imo. Probably to something like 30-35. Your goal here is to take down the pot PF or play in position against 1-2 players. Personally, I think you should flat here almost all of the time; see a cheap flop from the button and evaluate from there. Theoretically, you would give yourself more room to manuever post flop despite being shallow. Once you raised and one person called it creates a cascade.

    As played, once you flop top pair and decided to cbet into 4 players, you probably need to continue with a bet of about 75 or 80. With the intention of shoving every turn card. After the flop action, you have less than a pot size bet left. When the Ace hits the river, and the villain bets into you, you are just bluff catching a weaker K or a J. Painful, but we should fold here. I guess you could bluff the river and represent a straight, but I am not sure that works in this spots without some fold equity.

    Regarding your online hand, I agree you are playing too high. Calling a trash hand hoping to hit the second nuts is not optimal. If you called under the guise of balancing your range, you would have been much better raising in that spot - I am not advocating this, but your hand does not play well multiway at all here. Once we are check/raised with TPBK it has to be a fold, even though we are close to getting the right odds.
  • Gordon806 Posts: 59Member
    As for the live hand, sitting short stacked is putting yourself at a disadvantage and its going to be hard to translate a lot of what Bart is talking about. There are many hands that will be calling your turn bet (depending if you shove) Plus, you also fold out his equity - that's not always the worse thing in the world.

    As for the online hand, $1-2 online translates into $5-$10 live. I'm not sure about how Merge plays but that is definitely true for Stars.

    Bottom line - If you can't sit full stacked play $1-2 live and build a bankroll. It's not the most fun thing to do but hell I started at .10-.25 when I started and until I was crushing that level I wouldn't move up to the next. You learn a lot along the way so its not that boring!
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Wackabrew said

    Live hand: It's tough to play this hand profitably with 50BB from any position. You are committing yourself to a weak top pair when you hit it given that you have les than a PSB on the turn. Protecting your stack doesn't come into play when you have 30BBs left. You should just shove. If he has 2p+, you have outs (as long as he doesn't have the nut heart draw).

    The online hand: fold pre AINEC. K6s is garbage. If you insist on playing that hand, 3B pre-flop, but I don't recommend it. You are forced to fold to a 4B
    Its a min raise and I'm in late pos w a suited K w many people in. Give my position and my intial pot odds doesn't seem like a bad call.
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    Regarding your online hand, I agree you are playing too high. Calling a trash hand hoping to hit the second nuts is not optimal. If you called under the guise of balancing your range, you would have been much better raising in that spot - I am not advocating this, but your hand does not play well multiway at all here. Once we are check/raised with TPBK it has to be a fold, even though we are close to getting the right odds.

    I have to call. I am getting the right price with this stack size unless he has a set. 9 heart outs plus 2 pr outs. Thats the problem here you run into with capped play. Thats why i think this is a chk fold on the turn maybe here.
  • bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    wildncrazyguy said
    Wackabrew said

    Live hand: It's tough to play this hand profitably with 50BB from any position. You are committing yourself to a weak top pair when you hit it given that you have les than a PSB on the turn. Protecting your stack doesn't come into play when you have 30BBs left. You should just shove. If he has 2p+, you have outs (as long as he doesn't have the nut heart draw).

    The online hand: fold pre AINEC. K6s is garbage. If you insist on playing that hand, 3B pre-flop, but I don't recommend it. You are forced to fold to a 4B
    Its a min raise and I'm in late pos w a suited K w many people in. Give my position and my intial pot odds doesn't seem like a bad call.
    typical 6max EP open ranges from 6 max regs at this level is: AT+,22-AA,9Ts+,KQo, with some A2-A5s and a some suited connectors thrown in there. For full ring regs its even tighter than that.

    The flatting ranges for those people calling the minraise are generally pocket pairs, suited connectors, paint cards, AT-AQ

    K6s is super crushed here because short of flopping a flush you have no idea whats good/bad
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