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Horrible Call?

2-5NL

Hero is mid 30s white guy, been winning several big show-down pots with premium hands, up about $700. Has $1000 in chips to start the hand.

Villain is mid 20s hispanic guy. Half drunk, loud talker, engaging in conversations with his immediate table mates. Loves to talk smack. Headphones and hoodie. Raising constantly pre-flop. He has about $2000 in chips. When I sat down he had about same amount, so do not know how he got so big stacked.

Villain and I were the top dogs at the table as far as stack size. Before reading this hand and laughing at my horrible call, please read the following: About an hour prior to this hand, I was heads up w V and spiked a set on river. He paid me off (I won think a couple hundred total), and he proceeded to denigrate my poker skills (I smiled and said, "Well, I got lucky"). About 30 minutes prior to this hand, I raised the V after he c-bet on a flop of A48 (I had AQ). He glared at me and folded. About 5 minutes prior to this hand, I bluffed another player on a paired board after the turn. The other player tank-called; I checked the river, he bet, I snap folded, and the V shouts "There you go bro! You got stand up to that guy!"

V raises UTG (he is raising pre-flop constantly, probably half the hands) to $30, I call in late position with two black 99, guy in BB calls.

Flop 5d9hKd Pot $90

V bets $35, I raise to $135, BB folds, V calls in a calm manner, not hesitating.

Turn Qc. V cheks. I bet $200. V calls in same fairly calm manner, not hesitating but not liking the call.

River Tc. V almost immediately goes all in. I had about $600 left. Does anybody ever call here?
I was of course worried about the flush draw. Now we have to give V credit for having a J? Is he crazy enough to be bluffing? Ordinarily I would say No, as the theories expressed by Bart and everyone here correctly claim that rec players are not capable of bluffing like that on the turn or river. But what about the history between myself and V? I could tell he wanted to rub a bluff in my face and brag to his table mates about what a genius he was. Plus we have to not discount the chance that he hit two pair and was putting me on AK.

Thank you in advance for any comments.

Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I'm not a fan of your sizing, especially on the turn. With your dynamic with this villain, you should be betting much larger. He's not going to give you credit for a set. I'm probably going closer to pot on the turn.

    As played, tough spot. Very polarizing bet. I tend to believe that huge river bets like that are rarely bluffs. I'm okay folding there. Laugh and say "Nice hand - I missed" while folding so you can continue to get called down light by this guy.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Board is 5 9 K Q T
    Hero has 9 9

    I think there are several hands that V could be raising pre-flop UTG and calling "calmly" with that have us smoked - such as A J, Q J, QQ and KK. Being that he likes the bravado of the game, he might even show up here with JJ.

    I think that it's odd that he doesn't check/raise the river to further rub it in your face - but his line is consistent with a hand that he wants to make sure doesn't get check down.

    I'm with dp - all you've done is shown strength and it's obvious you've got a big hand. Heck, you could have KK here. So it seems that V's river action should have a J in it.
    I'd turn over one 9 and ask V "Nines not good?" These type of players would love to show you one in return to taunt you into calling. Then, based on the live read, I would probably fold or call. But as played, I'd fold.

    BTW - I've played a lot with these kinds of players - and while it seems like it's a leveling war, it's not. They try to make plays like this pretending it's all moxie, but most of the times in big pots, they've got the goods.
  • pokerguy1977 Posts: 37Member
    Thanks very much for the input. He had J8 diamonds.

    Anybody think I should have re-raised pre-flop? It probably would not have changed the outcome, as he flopped a flush draw and would not have folded. But just curious. Given his very wide range, I was very confident my 99 was ahead pre-flop.

    Definitely agreed that in retrospect my Turn bet of $200 into a pot of about $360 was too small with this particularly V. Should have bet pot sized. Honestly though I have very little experience of being in such large pots, so a $200 bet seems like a helluva lot under most circumstances. Did not think it through properly given the danger of letting this particular big stacker V out-draw me.

    On the other hand, don't we kind of want V to call the turn...knowing he is either on some kind of draw or we have him crushed? He was getting about 3-1 odds on my turn bet (he was faced with a $200 call into a $560 pot). So assuming he was on a flush/strt combo draw, he had a 24% (with 12 outs) chance to hit his river card. Under such circumstances, I have actually always favored a bet that makes your opponent pay max but still induces a call..heck, being a 76% favorite sounds ok to me.

    Honestly, when I saw the black T hit the river, I was really only thinking that the flush missed, and he was trying to steal the pot by making a monster river bet. It was a terrible call. Let emotions got the best of me.

    Maybe my next post will be "How to cope with being humiliated and losing $1000 to a complete a-hole after floppig a set" lol.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    pokerguy1977 said:

    On the other hand, don't we kind of want V to call the turn...knowing he is either on some kind of draw or we have him crushed?
    In this hand we want to bet the most that he will call. Hell, if you think he'll call a ship, then ship! I think with your dynamic he will call a large bet, hence my thought if potting the turn.


  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    pokerguy1977 said:
    Honestly, when I saw the black T hit the river, I was really only thinking that the flush missed, and he was trying to steal the pot by making a monster river bet. It was a terrible call. Let emotions got the best of me.
    you're not the first and certainly won't be the last.
    it's part of playing, learning and growing.
    calling is never wrong if you've learned something from it. then it just becomes an expensive lesson. the more of these you get, the better you will become.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    I used to level myself in these spots but then I started to think about how good this villain needs to be to be able to pull off this bluff here?

    To get someone to fold a set on a one liner to a straight is a somewhat advanced play especially in live pokeR. I started to put that logic on villains and soon realized most of these guys at these levels are no where near good enough to be on that level. The ones that are good enough are very easy to spot ouT.

    So don't level your self, if we believe the adage most low limit players are horrible and only think about their hand then this game gets a lot easier.
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    A classic case of out leveling yourself. The key thing to constantly remind yourself is at 2/5; is a player capable of river open ship bluffing his whole stack on a one liner?

    But also look at the line...

    UTG open- let's weight his range to value hands...

    K high flop with flush draw and he donk bet calls $35 - into a $90 pot? Immediately I dismiss AA, AK as he would protect against the flush draw. Maybe he's playing his hand slow but you'd hear from most 2/5 players when u raise them on this flop as they don't want a bad beat. it's possible he's slow playing top set but now my suspicion is up.

    Turn- Q, and he check calls. I now 100% also dismiss QQ holding on and getting lucky, and also gone is KK as he would put the hammer down now with front door diamonds and Blackfoot straight draws developing. NOW as the river is being dealt I would be hoping for a non diamond because I think it's pretty clear he is drawing.

    River - T off suit. And he open ships... I think it's really clear he has backed into a straight chasing diamonds. I knew that before reading your result.

    And if you want to factor in the history, how likely is the guy going to bluff you on this board and risk being hero called and being totally humiliated by his lex Luther (you right?) Candindly though that aspect is moot.

    2/5 players are not capable of pulling this bluff and realistically at any level, it would be complete Russian Roulette to open bluff ship into a 4 card straight when you could just as likely have a Straight.

    You out leveled yourself sir.

    If it's any consolation I've done this before and learned from it. Remember It's 2/5!!!!!

    Good luck!



  • pokerguy1977 Posts: 37Member
    Thank you very much for the thoughtful posts. I just simply dismissed the truth and logic about 2/5 players not being capable of this bluff, and went with the emotionalism that this V seemingly had against me. That and the non-diamond that hit the river was all that was going through my mind. Biggest mistake I have made in about 6-7 years of playing NL cash games.

    What is so ironic is that prior to this hand I said to myself "Do not get into a big confrontation against this guy. He is the only guy at the table that can bust you, and you are liable to let emotionalism get in the way of playing the hand correctly."

    In addition, after the flop I was almost 100% sure he had a flush draw (which he did). Yes he could have had a K, but his opening range was so wide that my gut told me he did not (and would have at least hesitated to think about folding out a weak K or raising with AK...remember he snap-called).

    In re-thinking the hand, I also must say that my Turn bet of $200 was just about right. Anything more and he probably folds (which I did not want).

    I guess the morale of the story is that you can have a right game-plan and right read, and still lose more than necessary (in this case a lot more!) by losing your cool on the river and not giving your opponent credit for backing into a hand that beats you.
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    "I guess the morale of the story is that you can have a right game-plan and right read, and still lose more than necessary (in this case a lot more!) by losing your cool on the river and not giving your opponent credit for backing into a hand that beats you."

    I think the moral of the story is when I am head's up against an equally huge stack, I am super excited to take over the table (not concerned about the only guy who can bust me) but with that said, I use that as my reminder to simply maintain my typical critical hand reading process going back to the PF option, bet sizing and position and asking myself questions street by street. But it's easy for me to Monday morning QB, we have all did what you did. If that's the worst mistake in 6-7 years then you are doing damn good!
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