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RTR--Complex Main Pot/Side Pot Scenerios w Nuts

BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
edited April 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
5-10 commerce. 1600 effective.
2 different scenarios.

Scenario 1 actually happened but I want to discuss the hypotheticals of Scenario 2 as well. In Los Angeles the 100% raise rule applies where a raise has to be at least 100% of the bet size or raise in order to reopen the betting.

Scenerio #1 (real life)

Hero has mega god like image and sits with 6000. V1 is 10-20 decent reg sitting with 1600. V2 is tilting rec who sits with 500.

Hero opens A J UTG to 35. V1 calls UTG1, V2 calls UTG2, Bttn calls, BB calls.

FLOP: Q T 8

BB checks, Hero checks, V1 bets 120, V2 calls, All fold to Hero who calls.

TURN: K

Hero checks, V1 bets 220, V2 moves all-in for 345 total. Action back to Hero?

Scenario #2

Action entirely the same except V2 starts with 600 and on the turn and moves all-in for 445 total. Hero?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    You didnt bet so you can make it anything you like. If you thing the good player would fold alot of his top pairish hands then i would click it back.

    In scenario 2 you could still min click it but since the bet is bigger why not flat since the all in is just over the reraise amount to get 10/20 player to ship. This works cuz fish made it 225 more from 220
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2015
    I think I need to clarify the situation. In Scenerio 1 if I flat V2s all-in on the turn, V1 cannot reraise due to the 100% rule. In Scenerio 2 if I flat the all-in V1 CAN reraise due to V2's raise sizing being over 100 percent.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    I would just ship all in. It would be roughly a pot sized raise. I feel like raising any less tips off your hand strength but leaves a really awkward stack size on a very wet and dynamic board texture. Because of that board texture, I don't like flat calling in the first scenario.

    Shipping may actually look weaker to this good opponent since he could read you as trying to isolate against the short stacker with something like a pair and a draw. He could call with hand like KJ or two pair.

    In the second scenario, I suppose just flatting the short stacker raise makes your hand look a lot like a draw and may get him to ship over-the-top lighter with just a pair.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    edited April 2015
    In scenario 1 although it's unfortunate that you can't have bluffs here, a raise to build a side pot before the river is still the best option. Too many scary rivers.

    In scenario 2 flatting is a possibility as he may be very inclined to 3-bet much his of range on a board where a whopping 24 cards will bring either a 1-liner or a flush in addition to even more cards that could counterfeit his 2-pair combos (would somewhat discount due to 40% turn sizing).

    Villain's turn betsize is pretty hard to understand, do you think he just made a mistake here? It would make sense as an exploitable sizing with several extremely specific hands (e.g., KJss) but other than that I'm not really sure why he would ever pick 220.
  • MrFizzbinMrFizzbin Posts: 356Subscriber
    Clearly the hero must be God because he called the 120 as if he knew the K was coming....

    That aside, if you check re-raise the bet and the all-in what hand or range are you repping to villain 1 that makes him comfortable to re-raise you. He may not put you on the straight he may put you on a set,. My answer is what story to you want to tell and what story do you think villain 1 will listen to. Figure that out then bet accordingly
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    The real issue with Hero not having come out and lead on the K is that now if he raises it looks alot stronger.. So the real question is Would the 10/20 player fold to any kind of aggression from Bart???

    If the answer is yes then bart should flat in both scenarios.. the Scenario 2 he will likely get the 10/20 to overship and he traps him there.. In scenario 1 Bart really cant do anything but call..

    then hope for a blank and then lead small on the river if again he feels the 10/20 wont bet thinly often enough.. I think this is highly probable.. when I am in a pot with a good player I tend to not value bet as thinly..I am just not going to get called as often..

    Then I thought what if a scare card comes I was thinking about this would Bart ever use that to bluff someone off a dry side pot?? Again if the answer is no then bart is in a pickle.. If he cant really bet river for value and cant really rep any bluffs then I changed my mind and I think bart has no choice but to raise in Scenario 1.. The parts of villains range that would fold is not going to give bart any more money anyways.. but the part of villains range that might be on a draw or have a redraw would.. So say Villain had top pair and broadway draws.. he might call a raise.. If villain has a set he is calling.. If villain has two pair he might even call. I think its only the single pair hands that might fold..

    So I would raise in scenario 1 a little over the min.. Yes this looks very strong ..but THAT bet CAN be a bluff.. and you just might get called more often..

    ww
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    I think we need to analyze what v1 has here and how he would play each part of his range. If he views you as good he should be calling pretty tight from utg1. He really shouldn't have to many flush draws given the Qs is out there and he 3b AKss pre I'm assuming. So his FD range should basically be KJss (may be a fold pre), AsJs (free rolling you).

    FD Range (2 combos) - KJss, AJss
    Strt draws (2 combos) - KJxx
    Value (8) - KxQx, TT, 88
    -flop value (9 combos) - AQ -- doesn't have this anymore bc doesn't bet turn w AQ here

    Shove analysis --
    FD range calls shove on turn
    strt draws fold turn
    Value range calls turn w sets 75 % and probably folds KQ to shove

    Flat analysis --
    FD range shoves turn
    Strt draws overcall and get it in when they complete
    Value range - shoves turn after flat more often than call shove

    * basically I don't think a good player should have many flush draws in their range here. Given that analysis they should have a lot of 2 pr+ and are more likely to shove the majority of their range then call a shove.

    Scenario 1 - shove since villian can't shove behind us and scare cards could,kill our action
    Scenario 2 - flat since villian will shove the majority of their range and we get value from KQ and sets that decide to fold to a turn shove. Additionally the non FD hands that are drawing gets to peel in a reverse implied odds situation



  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    ..

    So I would raise in scenario 1 a little over the min.. Yes this looks very strong ..but THAT bet CAN be a bluff.. and you just might get called more often..

    ww
    How can a raise from Bart be a bluff?? A player is all in.

  • MrFizzbinMrFizzbin Posts: 356Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    He may see your check re raise as isolating the fish,

    I think you want to push out the draws and keep the sets and 2 pairs because those are narrower draws and more likely to pay you off. I'd make it 650, the J9, and sets should call or re shove which is what you want.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    aaron said:
    Thehammah said:
    ..

    So I would raise in scenario 1 a little over the min.. Yes this looks very strong ..but THAT bet CAN be a bluff.. and you just might get called more often..

    ww
    How can a raise from Bart be a bluff?? A player is all in.

    Good point I forgot about that
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    aaron said:
    How can a raise from Bart be a bluff?? A player is all in.
    It can't be a pure bluff in terms of having air, but it can be a semibluff. For example, KJ or JdTd might figure to be behind V1's range but ahead of V2's.

    To make a contrived example: If Hero held KJ here and KNEW that V1 had dry AK (and can fold it) and V2 had a FD, then the likely optimal play is to shove.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I don't know how tough the 10-20 games are at commerce but usually I expect v1 to be a pretty solid player if he is winning there. therefore i expect he knows you are a pretty good player as well and will figure out don't have a set or J9s here EVER. so the only nuttish hand here is AJ without spades and probably he should even discount that some combinations because I don't think every good player will raise all AJo combos 9handed UTG. that's somewhat of a complicated thought process but again , he bets 10-20.


    villain on the other hand, when he bets the flop after calling an UTG raise is proabably having all 3 sets in his range (discounting QQ) and should have a pretty strong range betting into 4 ppl even after the pfr checked.


    scenario1: even though it looks super strong it would still reraise. I don't think villain will ever fold a set, when he realistically only loses to AJ.

    scenario2: I think a call is better because villain will almost always raise his sets, mainly because he wants to protect from heros pair+draws. if villain has only 2pair he will probably not call a reraise from hero but will MAYBE reraise himself, but at least call when hero flats.

    pretty sure sc1 reraise is better, sc2 call is better. against most villains
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I agree with maphacks as I said earlier with S1..

    I think villain is going to fold to a raise with the range that he wouldnt bet on the river.. So we make $0 additional money there.. BUT... He will call with his range that still has more equity.. Like a set mainly.. or who knows maybe even two pair.. So a raise even though it is so strong is better..

    now sizing.. The best he can have is same hand.. worst is say top pair and a gutter.. worst for us is set and two pair.. so I think raising enough to make the river less than a pot size bet is best.. let me add up the pot for a sec..

    Ok so pot is 1030 before Bart even acts on the turn. So if he raises to say 600 .. villain will only have something like 625 left.. hmm.. that might be too big.. so maybe a raise to 550.. wow will that little a raise seem too nutty??? I dunno.. I am torn because the stacks are getting shallow.. I think a raise to 600 with only 600 left might also seem very nutty too..

    Guess we would have to chalk this up to if Bart thought this guy would be willing to call off with a set.. then you can either ship it.. (ugg) or potentially have reverse implied odds if you raise to 600.. if the board pairs on the river.. for 600 into the now 3500+ pot we cant fold..

    grr...

    ww
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