Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

RTR--Alternative Line w Set

BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
Villain in the hand is same guy in the Main Pot/Side Pot hand from this week. Ok 10-20 reg. Prob a small winner.

$2000 effective. Hero sits with $7K

Hero raises to 35 w J J UTG1, Villian calls next to act UTG2.

FLOP: A J 4

Hero checks! Villian checks.

TURN: 5

Hero bets 50. Villain calls.

RIVER: 4

Whats your play here?
«13

Comments

  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I think when villain checks flop and then flats turn, his range will consist of a lot of weak showdown hands. These hands will be pretty unlikely to bet the river if we check to him. Because of this, I think we have to bet. And if we bet, we should pick a size that would be consistent with what we would use as a bluff. Against a weak medium strength hand range, I'd bet the river fairly large with my whole range. I don't mind an overbet at all here. If the pot's like $185, I think $250-325 or something looks big enough to be bluffy but not so crazy large that we can't be bluffing.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    What weak showdown hands? What range do you out the Villian on when he calls the turn?

    Bart
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I dont get why against a perceived better player you dont take a lead lead lead line. Is this guy always calling your flop check raise?

    As played it looks like villain has a weak ace. Like ace baby suited. A straight draw. Or even a flush draw. All are possible

    Only 23 comes in and based on what you say about him that is super unlikely. That does hit his aces up range so i might overbet pot. Made a polarized bet. Since pretty much every other hand missed. But if he does have aces up hes probably not folding.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2015
    Thehammah said:
    I dont get why against a perceived better player you dont take a lead lead lead line. Is this guy always calling your flop check raise?

    As played it looks like villain has a weak ace. Like ace baby suited. A straight draw. Or even a flush draw. All are possible

    Only 23 comes in and based on what you say about him that is super unlikely. That does hit his aces up range so i might overbet pot. Made a polarized bet. Since pretty much every other hand missed. But if he does have aces up hes probably not folding.
    Isn't it much more likely that he doesn't have aces up than have aces up? Why does he suddenly have aces up on the turn?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Wait i didnt see the board pair. He cant have 4x dd and run into trips. I think he had mostly draws in his range.

    45 unlikely since hes prob raising turn. So wow I just not sure other than a pair under jacks is calling. So i amend my previous post and say bet small to get looked up by a small to medium pair.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    Thehammah said:
    Wait i didnt see the board pair. He cant have 4x dd and run into trips. I think he had mostly draws in his range.

    45 unlikely since hes prob raising turn. So wow I just not sure other than a pair under jacks is calling. So i amend my previous post and say bet small to get looked up by a small to medium pair.
    SO if he has say 77s he is going to call a small bet on the river specifically putting me on KQ? I mean if your in this guys spot with 77 and it goes check check, bet call, and you face a bet--are you going to call the end? Also wouldn't most KQs bet the flop as a cbet bluff?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Yeah but you are the pfr. If you check this to might bet my bluffs and check back my showdown hands

    And yes is i had a broadway draw and you checked I am betting that too

    So doesnt that skew his range to more weak aces but not aces up and flush draws?
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    Bart,

    To me it seems like a check is in order here. From the way the hand plays out, I don't expect him to have much. Plus he won't be jerking you light. I'd check and let him bluff at the river. Again as played so does he even have a hand that cal call a river bet?
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    I meant heroing you light my stupid auto correct on my phone sorry.
  • fishcake Posts: 954Subscriber
    Check.
  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    I'd rather mix it up with top set than middle set since top set would be blocking a lot of his value hands.

    On the flop I would expect him to bet gutters and 3 flush/3 straight type hands when checked to so I don't expect him to have a missed draw all too often. Looks to me like a hand trying to get to showdown such as 77-TT, Jx, 22-33, or possibly a small suited ace. Given that range most of it will just check back in position so we need to bet something. We could bet big and make it look like a bluff or we could bet small to make it look like a thin value/blocker bet with Jx. Since we don't get to the river with very many bluffs I think it makes sense to bet small to get value from the 77-TT and Jx portion of his range and give him a chance to turn 22-33 or a missed draw into a bluff by bluff raising. If he does happen to have Ax that he was pot controlling with there's a very good chance this type of player will make a value raise putting us on Jx so I don't think we miss out on value against that. So something silly small like $40.
  • Aldune Posts: 55SubscriberProfessional
    edited April 2015
    Villain's range consists mostly of missed FDs and possibly 76s if he calls that preflop. We block KJ/KQ/JTs and it's also pretty unlikely that he has a small suited ace given positions.
    OTR as played it's a pretty mandatory check, we're not getting him to call his weaker pocket pairs as often as he'd bluff his missed hands.
    There's 2 combos of A4s but he never has those given the way the hand played out.
    He never has 54s either.
    He could have 55 and even though we'd rather bet/3b against that hand we can still put in a big c/r
    If he has Axs he's likely to VB himself putting us on a bare jack/QQ/KK
    I can't see him have AQ/AK here ever either. If he didn't 3b pre he'd never check back the flop, and if he did he would raise turn.
    I can also see him occasionally turn 22/33/66 into a bluff

    Cliffs :
    He doesn't have enough value hands to call a river bet
    -> He is more likely to bluff than he his to call
    -> If he has a hand he'd call (or raise) with he's going to value bet it himself most of the time
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    idk if this guy will bet if checked too though. He is a mid high stakes reg so he has to be somewhat good.

    What is Bart repping here that this guy thinks Bart will fold to a river bet from him? He played hand very passively so any bet on river is going to be a bluff anyways and I think he will go with his show down value.

    I think we have to bet here to look like a blocker bet.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    idk if this guy will bet if checked too though. He is a mid high stakes reg so he has to be somewhat good.

    What is Bart repping here that this guy thinks Bart will fold to a river bet from him? He played hand very passively so any bet on river is going to be a bluff anyways and I think he will go with his show down value.

    I think we have to bet here to look like a blocker bet.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Bart said:
    What weak showdown hands? What range do you out the Villian on when he calls the turn?

    Bart
    Ax, Jx, TT. Most Axs hands are chopping with other Axs. AK normally 3 bets pre. Stronger AX (AQ/AJ/A4) typically bets flop. I really don't think that he has many hands that want to value bet the river if we check. Most people will check the river with Ax assuming you'll fold KK/QQ if they bet.

  • PocketAceTrader782 Posts: 439Subscriber
    To a decent 10-20 player, I think your hand looks a lot like KK or QQ as played especially after the bet on the turn. I guess sometimes you could have JQ and play it this way as well.

    I would check the river. If he has an Ace for some reason he didn't bet on the flop he is going to bet it now. But I think he has a lot of missed draws such as QK, diamonds that he can turn into bluffs here. You can get value that way. Make a small check raise if he bets the river. If he has something, I don't think it's very strong.

    Carmine
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    reasoning for checking flop?

    as played, depending how good the villain is I might fake blockbet river. this achieves two things: villain will look us up a bit lighter and probably still raise any Ax putting you on KK or QQ.
    secondly and more important, villain will turn some hands into a bluff putting you on KK,QQ even though he can only really rep some ATs or A3s type of hands. if I don't think this guy has these kind of hands in his preflop calling range (which he probably shouldn't as a decent player), I would probably check the river, hoping he would turn some diamond draws into a bluff which is also pretty bad but at least there is a chance.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    maphacks said:
    reasoning for checking flop?

    as played, depending how good the villain is I might fake blockbet river. this achieves two things: villain will look us up a bit lighter and probably still raise any Ax putting you on KK or QQ.
    secondly and more important, villain will turn some hands into a bluff putting you on KK,QQ even though he can only really rep some ATs or A3s type of hands. if I don't think this guy has these kind of hands in his preflop calling range (which he probably shouldn't as a decent player), I would probably check the river, hoping he would turn some diamond draws into a bluff which is also pretty bad but at least there is a chance.
    I am assuming that Bart thought

    * as a 10/20 player he might semi bluff all draws
    * Would bet any pairs he had
    * Bart taking a value own line with a better player which is generally a good idea


    maybe bart can comment on why he checked on the podcast.. Against a good player who is willing to make plays then I think the value own line is way better.. If the good player is tighter I think the lead lead lead line is better since they wont bet.. ie one player is good for the push and the other is better for the pull method..

    ww
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    The most likely hands the villain has calling the pre flop raise are Ax and PP. He will check most of his Ax behind on the flop, but call with them on the turn after hero bets. On the river, if he was stubborn with a PP he isn't betting because he has SDV. But he will call with Ax, because he will be curious and thinks he is most likely chopping.

    There's $180 in the pot, so toss out a neat stack of $5 chips and re raise if he pops you.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    Just out of curiosity. If you were the villain in the hand and had something like A2-AT and the river was checked to you where the J plays on the paired board, would you bet? What do you think the preflop rasier has after it goes check check, bet call, check?
Sign In or Register to comment.