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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

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RTR--Alternative Line w Set

2

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I would bet thinking you have KK QQ mainly in your range

    So of i were villain i would bet rather small hoping you hero me since I checked flop
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    I'm nobody, but from what I learned from CLP is to value bet as thinly as possible. Always pushing the envelope. So I think I would be betting any ace here when checked to, trying to get value from hands like KJ, QJ, J10s.
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    When I say nobody, I mean by that I'm no 10/20 reg and I I have never played that high. Never played 10/20 or 10/25. The highest game I play is 5/10, so maybe I don't qualify to answer.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,049AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2015
    So if I block most of the jack combos because I have three of them and I know that you will bet an ace for value and that you may bluff some backdoor draws that missed AND you are unlikely to call me with a hand like 99s (because 9s beat nothing as you think I would cbet my bluffs on the flop) what do you think the right play is here?
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    I posted that I would check yesterday. I think that's the best play unless there is something that I am missing?
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited April 2015
    Hmm...why is checking to let Villain value-own himself by betting Ax necessarily going to be better than leading river ourselves?

    Let's assume that Villain folds to a river CR 100% of the time. I know that isn't realistic, but it makes the analysis easier.

    In that case, we make more by checking to Villain's Ax is he will value bet bigger (and consequently value-own himself) than we would have value bet ourselves (assuming that he always calls a river bet).

    If Villain has a tendency of thin value betting for large sizings, then I like the river check somewhat more than I otherwise would. If Villain has a tendency of thin value betting for smaller sizings, then I like the river lead somewhat more than I otherwise would.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    you said he is a. Break even 10/20 player. So does that mean he thin value bets. And will play more aggro in pos assuming you have a pair below the ace?

    If so then your value own line is great. Just hope he bets a decent amount on river so when you cr him he might be pot committed
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Well considering the turn bet was only $50 w $2000 effective i dont think he is going to pot commit himself

    So then its just how big a cr would he call?

    Would he hero a bigger one Ie you could be cr bluffing? If so then if he bets says $100. You will need to raise kinda big

    But again if hes the kind to fold that hope he missed his draw and bombs it.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    To play devils advocate

    So question about the opportunity cost of playing this a little fancy

    IF he had an ace are you getting three streets. If so how much?

    IF he has a draw will He bet it?

    IS his frequency of bluffing high?

    I ask these questions because as of the turn you are making less than $100. Since our range of villain is weak aces or draws wouldnt you make more by just leading?

    If he has a high bluffing frequency. Then i think your line is good.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited April 2015
    This is also a good thing to think about when we are thinking about value betting river thinly against someone who likes to take value-own lines against us.

    If we thin value bet smaller than we normally would, then we won't lose as much to a Villain who is habitually checking to induce with stronger hands against us.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Thehammah said:
    you said he is a. Break even 10/20 player. So does that mean he thin value bets. And will play more aggro in pos assuming you have a pair below the ace?

    If so then your value own line is great. Just hope he bets a decent amount on river so when you cr him he might be pot committed
    Wendy, I think it doesn't just depend on whether he thin value bets a decent percentage of the time. I think it also matters how big he will size a thin value bet.

    Of course, one of the advantages of checking river is that we win 2 bets if Villains calls a CR. Obviously, getting called for a river CR is much better than leading river ourselves.

    WIth that said, I don't think that river is an automatic check if Villain is thin value betting Ax often. Villain's likely river sizing matters too when we consider the different EV of checking river versus betting river.

  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Just out of curiosity. If you were the villain in the hand and had something like A2-AT and the river was checked to you where the J plays on the paired board, would you bet? What do you think the preflop rasier has after it goes check check, bet call, check?
    There's definitely a few players that will bet if you check, but there's also a decent amount that will just take the free showdown with Ax expecting you to fold KK/JT type of hands. You would have to have them bet and also call a x/r though. I don't know what % people check vs bet and then what % they call vs your x/r. In general, better players tend to bet/fold or take the lower variance route, so I think betting ourself is better than x/r. I also think overbetting looks bluffier while x/r looks more like "I was trapping you the whole time!"
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    quote="Bart;50164"]Just out of curiosity. If you were the villain in the hand and had something like A2-AT and the river was checked to you where the J plays on the paired board, would you bet? What do you think the preflop rasier has after it goes check check, bet call, check? [/quote]

    I would value bet fold hoping to get looked up by KK,QQ, suited broadway jacks and fold to a re-raise.
  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    Some very good points are being made but I still think there's a good chance this type of player will value raise river with Ax anyway if we bet really small thinking he chops at worst since he expects a cbet from AK and AQ and at best gets heroed by KK-QQ, Jx. Betting small also has the benefit of getting value from hands that would check back such as Jx and QQ.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    daniel9861 said:
    Some very good points are being made but I still think there's a good chance this type of player will value raise river with Ax anyway if we bet really small thinking he chops at worst since he expects a cbet from AK and AQ and at best gets heroed by KK-QQ, Jx. Betting small also has the benefit of getting value from hands that would check back such as Jx and QQ.
    I really doubt it. What can we possibly have that we would play this way? Hes way way more likely to just call

  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    daniel9861 said:
    Some very good points are being made but I still think there's a good chance this type of player will value raise river with Ax anyway if we bet really small thinking he chops at worst since he expects a cbet from AK and AQ and at best gets heroed by KK-QQ, Jx. Betting small also has the benefit of getting value from hands that would check back such as Jx and QQ.
    I really doubt it. What can we possibly have that we would play this way? Hes way way more likely to just call

    With a small blocking bet our hand would look like KK-QQ, Jx.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Or the nuts. If villain has a weak ace there is little value in raising. Because he knows we wont call

    Besides i dont think bart has made a block bet in his life
  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    By that logic V should always turn TT and worse into a bluff because he knows Bart "can't call". Which would make betting small an even better play.
  • StACkOffStACkOff Posts: 71Member
    edited April 2015
    Vilain perceived calling range turn (after ckb flop)
    . A2s A3s A5s A6s A7s A8s A9s AT (32 combo)
    . KK QQ (12 combo)
    . KJ QJ TJ 9Js (13 combo)
    . FD KQ, KT, K9, QT, Q9, T9, T8, T7, 98, 97, 87, 86, 76, 63 (14 combo)
    . FD+tp A2 - AT (7 combo)
    . FD+2nd pair JK, JQ, JT, J9 (4 combo)
    . OESD 67s (3 combo, 67d already count)
    . str8 23s (4 combo)

    I suppose vilain might ckb flop with any weak ace to pot control and for deception value.

    he also might have ckb some solide value like AQ AK AJ A4 for deceptive value, since we don't have tendencies of vilain, I suppose that he will bet the flop with the top of his value range.

    First scenario : hero check
    vilain might thin value (sizing unknown) any weak ace
    vilain might bluff his busted draw (capacity to bluff on river blank?)
    so vilain is betting 32+4 so 36 combo of AX
    and might bluff, 17 combo
    he also might thin QQ KK, 12 combo

    vilain is checking back the rest, 13 combo


    second scenario : hero bet
    vilain might look up with any 1pair hand, 57 combo
    give up his busted draw, 17 combo

    question sizing?
    with no information on vilain, I don't want to increase too much the FE and make fold a 1pair hand, so I am not strong betting this river. 130 seems fine to me.

    what I like to do in this kind of spot is to blocking bet this river with 60, trying to rep KK QQ. I will be always call with an ace here because my perceived range is so depolarized and I might induce a bluffing raise from his busted drawing range (easier for vilain to bluff raise a 60 bet than a 130 bet). we also might induce a thin value raise.



    If I don't know:
    vilain's bluffing frequency river
    vilain's capacity to bluff raise
    vilain's betting sizing (if we check and he is thin value river any A)
    vilain's hero fold tendencies
    vilain's hero call tendencies
    how thin vilain is capable to value
    if he might ckb any weak sdv hand

    I sure go for a for a betting river line, and my sizing will be around 120-130.
    hero betting range contain some bluff and I might be able to be look up by any 1pair hand.


    I will hate to check and vilain checking back a weak sdv hand.
    I will hate to check and vilain is thin value with a weaker sizing that I would put and folding to a CR.

    the best scenario will be CR river and be call, but it's not happen that often imo.


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    daniel9861 said:
    By that logic V should always turn TT and worse into a bluff because he knows Bart "can't call". Which would make betting small an even better play.
    Also true. But how often is even a good player doing that?
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