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5 Way Flop w/ QQ Now What?

Came into an weird spot this weekend. While waiting for a bigger game to open up I sat in a 2/3 game that looked to have a lot of action.

Hero has only been at the table for right at 2 orbits and has won one decent pot without showdown. Hero has raised maybe 3 times PF in time at the table. Read on other players is that there is 2 guys that seem okay and more on the tight side. Everyone else is pretty loose.

-Hero is in the BB with Q Q (stack 400) --30yo White Guy

-V1 in utg2 raise to 11 (stack 200) --Mid 40's Asian Guy
-V2 in mp calls (stack 350) --Mid 30's Hispanic Guy
-V3 in lp calls (stack 180) --50's or 60's White Guy
-V4 in SB calls (stack 500) --50's Hispanic Guy speaking very little English

-Hero 3bets to 40 and everyone insta-calls

Pot- 195
Flop- 4 6 8

-V4 in SB leads out for 45

What is the best play still w/ 3 players to act behind?

Comments

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    3 bet larger next time with this many callers.

    What is UTG 2 range here? Let's say this guy is loose and QQ ahead, with 4 callers I'm raising to 60-70 maybe more depending on some dynamics.

    as played in calling flop here and seeing about a turn if we get into crazy action like a raise and a shove I would fold.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited April 2015
    3bet larger to $60-$72.

    As played, raise flop to $155-$170.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    that is a super weak lead.. he probably has a draw.. Raise to what david said and fold to certain players.. you cant fold to the shorty but their shipping range is wider as well.

    Yeah you made a big sizing mistake pre.. with almost 40 in the pot I am raising alot more.. like David said at least 50 or 60..

    With your 40 raise once one person calls they all feel they have odds to call .. even if they didnt.. although the pot is bigger which is great obviously that isnt the best flop..

    ww
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    I agree w/ all of you....My sizing pre was terrible. Especially in a game like this where I can get calls from so many worse hands. Actually this hand made me think back to spots like this where there is a lot of limpers or an EP raise and then field callers, I always 3bet on the smaller side. Good lesson.

    To continue the hand.....

    Pot is 195
    Flop is 4 6 8

    -V4 in SB leads out 45
    -Hero raises to 160
    -V1 original PFR calls
    -V2 folds
    -V3 calls (actually started w/ more like 100 pre flop)
    -V4 calls

    Pot is right around 735
    Turn is 9

    Checks to us....We only have 200 left.......What are we doing?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    ship...

    nothing else you can do.. the pfr didnt reraise your flop bet so I discount KK or AA he can have these but its now much less likely..

    9 is a pretty good card for you.. I would have been worried about other hands.. 98 is possible but again not from the pfr.. only the blind who lead can really have 98..

    my range analysis is blind has a drawing hand so pair plus straight draws and alot of flush draws..

    the or I think has high flush draw.. or an overpair..as the bulk of his range..

    ww
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    DavidChan said:
    3bet larger to $60-$72.

    As played, raise flop to $155-$170.
    David, I totally agree. But as played, would you raise fold if hero bets $155 and V2 ships? same question if it folds around and V4 ships?
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    Johnny: I think the 9d changes nothing and i'm not folding a quality over-pair for my last $200 getting over 3-1 in a 2/3 game... But I'm commenting as played. I agree with everyone on the PF sizing needing to be much higher. Not only will worse call but it also defines your hand (and other hands) enabling you to be clearer on opposing hand ranges.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    GSpot said:
    Johnny: I think the 9d changes nothing and i'm not folding a quality over-pair for my last $200 getting over 3-1 in a 2/3 game... But I'm commenting as played. I agree with everyone on the PF sizing needing to be much higher. Not only will worse call but it also defines your hand (and other hands) enabling you to be clearer on opposing hand ranges.

    Thanks for the feedback GSpot. Interesting you brought up "defining your hand." Or "defining villains hand."

    Do you think that is the same thing as "narrowing a range?" Reason I ask is because si always had a thought that if you could narrow someone's range it allows you to play more informed against them. But then if you are narrowing someone's range is that necessarily a good thing? Don't you want to keep someone's range wide in a sense so that your keeping in a lot of hands that we beat....

    I know I kind of took that for a turn but since yo mentioned it, I just thought to ask your opinion...
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Results.....

    V4 in the SB checks and we shove.
    V1 calls and has 78
    V4 calls and flopped a set of 4's

    Tough luck I guess. But i knew when it was over my PF raise was entirely too small. I really thought the 45 lead from v4 in SB was strange. At the time I thought he probably wasn't betting without a made hand but it was so small....almost like a blocking bet. I just don't see any possible way in that spot I am not raising OTF. And then OTT are we just going into ck/call or ck/fold mode with QQ? Just a mistake PF cost me in a way I guess
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Bummer man

    The point about raising more isnt to get information but for value A side benefit is that is does narrow the ranges of everyone else in the hand

    Lastly preflop its sometimes difficult to price a raise to deny odds to call and thats not a good way to think anyway. But on flops and turns you can. So make bets that force your opponent to make a mistake regardless of the outcome

    Nothing you havent heard before
  • GSpot Posts: 97Subscriber
    My thought is at the $5 blind level, the optimal approach is a fundamentally sound value based strategy. By betting your hand appropriately, you lower a V's propensity to bluff just because they thought your sizing meant a weak holding, thus defining their range more clearly. Bart has talked about this concept before and Wendy is right in that it's for value but the byproduct of that is also defining your range, thus defining V's ranges also.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    IMO most players at this level are good enough these days to do simple hand readings. Your hand looks like AK or an overpair IMO unless you 3bet often.

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