Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Flop set vs fav rec playr turn check raised

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
Villain is a player who i have know for over 5 yrs. reads on him

He varies his raise sizes bigger means better.
A little straightforward
Can make moves
Slowplays

Effective stacks 1000

Villain open raises to 35 his normal is 15 to 20. Hero calls in pos w 9 9

Flop T 9 6

Villan. Checks. I bet $65 into $70 pot. When he checks here he pretty much has a big ace or an overpair hes slowplaying He calls. Pot $200


Turn. A

Hero?
«1

Comments

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    Bomb it. He isn't betting that big imo to take that line on flop with an over pair.

    I'm betting 300 on turn shoving rest on non diamond river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Well considering the title i bet $120. He raises to $320

    Hero?
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    We only lose to AA and TT obv. Do you think this guy check calls flop with AA or TT on a wet board?

    I can see AK or Ax taking this linE. With that I would think raising back to like 570-600 would be good since a lot of rivers can be bad. But if you feel this guy is nitty enough to only show up with AA then yea this hand becomes a bit harder.
    by 1Oneup
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    He isnt a nit. But he does like to slowplay.
  • mythomaniac Posts: 284Subscriber
    Given your description of reads, the bottom this villains range is Ad Ks when he c/r turn and the rest are sets that beat you. You said he can make moves so at worst it's KdQd It's quite unlikely he is doing this with KK - JJ. The turn c/r from a habitual slow player and your bet sizing reads screams you're in trouble. That doesn't seem like a get out of my pot raise it seems like a pot building one. Since you think he can make moves there are a few combos of AK/KQ of diamonds but the 6 combos of sets crush you. The pot would be 840ish if you call and you would have roughly 580. Every river shove is going to suck other than a 9.

    If you think he is bluffing often enough to play 5th Street chicken then I think you call Turn and evaluate river but if he bets river you are probably behind.
  • mythomaniac Posts: 284Subscriber
    AdKd*** on the second line. Damn auto correct
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    it seems like if you shove - he's only calling with a bigger set
    and he's folding out the rest (WAWB)
    but I think it would be too weak to fold on turn

    I'd just call and re-eval the river
    AK is still in his range (suited, probably)
    As is KK, QQ and JJ which we crush.

    Is there any chance that he might have Q T here?
  • ACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    I think it's important what position he was in. If he opened CO and you are on the button it's a lot different to him opening UTG and you calling UTG+1.
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    ACK said:
    I think it's important what position he was in. If he opened CO and you are on the button it's a lot different to him opening UTG and you calling UTG+1.
    When I first read I thought it was UTG and UTG +1. Hmmm if he was say in CO i wonder if this could be a str8 as well.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    edited April 2015
    Exact V position would be nice to know.
    When people raise more pre I think that usually means big hand, but big vulnerable hand, like TT or JJ.
    It's possible he could do this with QQ+ I guess also...
    I think 66 are very unlikely, especially if he opened from EP - I'd take 66 completely out.

    On the flop, why would he all of a sudden check JJ+ and then x/c a bet? Very weird. :???:
    Now on the turn if he did have JJ-KK somehow (which I find VERY weird) why would he x/r turn - there's just noway (unless you got some uber special history with villain)

    I think A K would prob c-bet that flop, but let's say some of the time he didn't.
    The other big combo draw that pick up back door on turn is like Q J - very very unlikely due to pre-flop sizing and not c-betting flop IMO
    Also I agree that turn sizing looks very valuey so semi-bluff hand is less likely.

    I guess you could call turn and maybe b/f tiny on a non diamond river if checked too, but I'm very concerned about TT here.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    You have to define a part of his range that you're A) ahead of and B) he's going to pay you off with. And it has to fit the action for pre, flop, turn. You know the guy way better than us - so what part of his range are you beating/targeting?
  • Philly Dave Posts: 114Subscriber
    You have a lot of history. What does villain think you are potting flop and half potting a turn A with?
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    yea if we are beat here its more TT then AA.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    NEVERLEARN2 said:
    ACK said:
    I think it's important what position he was in. If he opened CO and you are on the button it's a lot different to him opening UTG and you calling UTG+1.
    When I first read I thought it was UTG and UTG +1. Hmmm if he was say in CO i wonder if this could be a str8 as well.
    he was UTG and I was next to act..


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    BradleyT said:
    You have to define a part of his range that you're A) ahead of and B) he's going to pay you off with. And it has to fit the action for pre, flop, turn. You know the guy way better than us - so what part of his range are you beating/targeting?
    And we get to the crux of why I thought I played this hand so badly..

    Ok so I think I got wrapped up in " I have a set"

    So lets do some deep hand range analysis with this type of player..

    He slowplays.. but is he slowplaying any overpair?? JJ QQ nah probably not.. KK AA? ayup..

    Can he have AK?? He is going to bet a flush draw so he doesnt have AK dd.. So would he float my flop bet with just AK on that board?? Hmm.. I dont really think that would happen too often.. say 10% or less So of the 12 combos of os AK thats only 1 combo..

    So when the ace hits the turn.. Basically he either has KK or AA.. right? why bet you hammah idiot!

    If he has KK he can put me on AKdd.. if he has AA he now has a set.. lol. This boys is why you should never alter your bet sizing

    then the turn bet is small.. If hes gonna make a move you think he would choose this sizing? no way. he shipped 1300 last week to get a player to fold a set.. in a 500 pot..

    Game time I knew that was a really really bad card for me but I still couldnt stop myself from betting.. then he check raises me and I still call! leaving myself 500 in a now 800 pot..

    So heres what happened

    Spoiler:
    I called turn.. river pairs the T and he bets 425.. well its either go all in or fold.. I ship he snaps and has AA

    So I played this rather badly imho.. no cooler here.. I am a much better hand reader than him. I know he slowplays and I know his big raise pre means big pocket pair.. so what else can he have to check raise me on the turn?

    What I should have done is:

    Check the turn!
    there is not fear of a flush draw this guy has basically only KK AA and maybe QQ some of the time.. Then when he leads river I can either min raise fold or just call.. Now that I would have felt like a million bucks!

    Later I was chatting with another reg that said he saw this player raise only 20 with AK suited.. I didnt remember his AK preflop raise sizing and if I had then its a snap check on turn and a call on river.. I feel I should have saved at least 600-700 on this hand..money saved is money earned.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    How long have you been playing w/ villain this particular session? The reason I ask is b/c of the game flow or if he is up or down, had multiple re buys, etc etc could play more into his state of mind at the time....I would guess you would give that information if you thought it was of use...but just throwing it out there....

    From Hammah's description, when he checks it's in line w/ TT rather than AA. There is a FD and a straight draw to broadway connectors which is a big part of Hammah's range...So I doubt he is checking w/ AA on the flop.

    Folding the turn when it's $200 more is too weak right? I think we have to call and evaluate the river. If a "wet" or "scary" card comes OTR (the straight or flush comes in) and villain shoves then I think we can fold...as hard as it is.

    I think there are a lot of cards that could come OTR and stop villain from betting....unless he has it.
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    We were writing posts at the same time.....lol. So ^^ this is posted right after you...

    It's just a horrible situation. I don't understand checking AA on that flop. From your description isn't he more in line to check TT there than AA....??

    I still don't know how you can fold OTT. I know you said you should have checked behind...but once you bet and it's 200 more to call and the pot is 640....that's really tough
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    He is like many fish/tricky players in the sense that he would bet his perceived weak range but check his monsters.. I have played with this guy on and off for over 5 years easily.

    Just to give you an idea of the old wendy vs the new wendy..

    he has hit no less than 4 sets on me when I had overpairs to him.. One of these was in a pot where we were about 600 deep and he limps from mp one raiser to 25 or 30.. I am in sb and threebet to 100 (I was bad then..lol) and he says outloud... "well its either all in or fold" and ships eventually.. I snap with KK he has QQ ..hits Q on river..

    If he flops big ..like 2 pair or better he is always going to slowplay it..even if he is the pfr.. its bizarre..backwards play.. when you combine it with his preflop raising tells you ..ahem I mean I should have been able to narrow his range down enough to save a shitload of money on this hand.. I mean thats the whole point about hand reading isnt it.

    taking everything into consideration and exploiting the other player???

    this guy had stopped playing at my casino for a while and went to another one but has been back the last few months. I will change tables just to be on his left he is that clueless. last time I doubled thru him on a 3200+ pot when I had AA and he just wouldnt fold AK on king high board.. He is so juicy.. I have so vastly improved my game and he still plays the same he did 5 years ago.

    sigh lesson learned.. just got wrapped up in my own hand.. bad hammah!

  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,842Subscriber
    Idk can we really get away from this hand? Maybe to the biggest nit we can. If we take a check call line to hopefully get a cheap show down I guess we caN.

    Seems like more of a cooler but maybe that's just me.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    The turn check / minraise is very telling imo. What possible hands could he be making a valuey raise with after the A hits (which in itself is kind of a truth serum card)? Is he check raising AK? Can't think of rec players who would x/r AK on turn with 1 pair. They would either bet or x/c. And with KK I think villain would x/c as well. It's a gross card cuz it makes it hard to get value from flopped over pairs , and in some cases he has pulled way ahead. Does this villain raise huge pre with AT? Most don't.

    In practice I'm probably calling turn x/r and evaluating river. If he sizes well he should be able to get a call (or value raise) from hero on board pairing river. Yes it is coolerish to lose with a boat in holdem , but it seems there were signs we could have used to our advantage, as wendy has already stated.
Sign In or Register to comment.