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Did I miss river value? & what to do in a bet-fold spot with .5 SPR?

StevenTedisky Posts: 4Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
If our mp3 players shocked us with a high voltage whenever we missed value then I would have experienced some mild pain after my river play on this hand.

This was a new table that formed and we were on the first orbit. Table max is actually $300 but I "sneak" $320 on whenever I come in. Dealers rarely notice and it's a psychological thing for me. Whenever my stack is below the max buy-in it tends to bother me, primarily because I think i have a huge edge deep and I will miss value against other deep stacks. Does anybody else do this?

In terms of this hand, I certainly got a little lost. I paused quite a bit on the flop and on the turn and definitely considered the fact that I may be no good. His river check is textbook Bart Hanson green light for hero to bet. Based on the way Villain plays the hand I think when we reach the river villain can never have a Jack, a ten, or pocket 3s. I will explain why after the hand, also I spaced out the results in case you do not want to see them until after reading through. There is one concept that this brings up which also confuses me: This seems like a classic bet-fold on the river except that we have .5 SPR, what do you do when you're in a bet-fold situation and you have .5 SPR?

Live $1/$2 Mohegan Sun
Villain: (UTG) $310 (middle-aged white male, in casual work clothes, recreational player)
Hero: (MP1) $315

Hero has [Ac Ad]

Preflop: Villain raises to $10 UTG, UTG+1 Calls, Fold, Hero 3-bets to $30, Folds back to Villain who calls.
(Heads up, hero in position)

Flop: ($58) [ Jd Ts 3c ]
Villain checks, Hero bets $30, Villain check-raises to $65, Hero calls $35

Turn: ($187) [ Jd Ts 3c ] Th
Villains bets $55, Hero calls $55

River: ($298) [ Jd Ts 3c Th ] Js
Villain checks, Hero tanks and checks

Results: $298 pot
Final Board: J T 3 T J (rainbow on turn)

Villain shows QQ
Hero wins with AA

I don't believe Villain can have a Jack because he will always bet the river. I don't think villain can have a ten because he would never checkraise the flop with only a ten unless its JT which isn't possible because of my first sentence. He cannot have 33 because he would not have raised 5x preflop with 33. Although 33 makes sense as a check-raise, bet, check the preflop play excludes it. Therefore, I believe we should always be value-betting this river, we both have .5 SPR and I think we can get paid off with anything under a shove.

P.S. Bart please get some plugins that allow us to use icons for the suits as well as spoiler tags and html tags??? I'm sure someone has brought this up but I'm just thoroughly going through the forum now.


  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    If you have a spr of .5 why would you ever bet fold? Just shove.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    there is no need to post results at all in the OP -- in fact it is very distracting from having a serious discussion about your hand. the hand history should end when he checks to you on the river and it's your action. i honestly don't understand why people seem hell-bent on posting results ASAP.

    anyway, if the question is whether we should bet on the river when checked to, i would say we can possibly get called by worse, including AK/AQ hands that might call for a chop, as well as the QQ/KK hands. as played, i would bet really small in order to get looked up by those types of hands, something around $75. players at 1/2nl are so rarely going to c/r all in as a bluff, that you can still safely fold if he does check raise.

    i would also have bet much bigger on the flop and turn (he almost never has a T here) as the flop is the ultimate board for drawing. JTx flops connect with such a high % of hands that raise/call pre.
  • StevenTedisky Posts: 4Member
    Whoa chilidog, you see my post count? It's ONE. I certainly would have left off on the river if I knew better, honestly though thank you for the info as I'll do that in the future. Us Cash Plays/Deuce Plays subscribers aren't used to being able to post hands we're just diligent listeners.

    Thank you for the river input as well, however, if I bet 45 on the flop and he check-raises to 100 are we really getting in 150BB with AA on JT3r in the first orbit against an unknown? I honestly did not KNOW that I was good until his river check.

    I tried to pull a Bart: call flop 3-bet, call turn, fold river to bet.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Nothing personal Steven. Sorry if I came off annoyed or harsh, just that this has been happening so often in this forum and I think it disables us from really dissecting a hand when the results are known. But I seem to be the only one concerned about it, so maybe I need to chill in this forum that is so new and with a culture that is still being established. Maybe people will come to the same conclusions I have after gaining some forum posting experience.

    Think about this: results of a poker hand are meaningless, it is the decision making process that we are trying to examine and get better at here.
  • chilidog said

    Think about this: results of a poker hand are meaningless, it is the decision making process that we are trying to examine and get better at here.
    As an infrequent visitor and poster..long time listener..I appreciate the retraction and politeness, but disagree with the above. Yes I agree it should wait awhile to stimulate debate, but in the end, live in different, and it helps to add a data point to the way a real live game goes down, because I have many times been shocked by some of the plays!
    I appeciate your posting Chilidog!

  • jmc Posts: 58Member
    I think you should 3-bet larger preflop. I've been playing a bunch of 1/2NL in new mexico and pretty much nobody folds to 3-bets.

    With the caller, I'd make it at least $45 to $50 pre.
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