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Fairly deep PLO hand out of position

CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
$5/5 plo, Friday night, players are pretty deep from playing all day. I have about $4K.

Vill 1 $6K - very aggressive, early 30's asian, gambooooler type, likes to capitalize on weakness, thinking player but has many leaks, plays way too loose

Vill 2 $5K - mid 40's asian, has chipped up, one of the tighter players at the table, doesn't raise pre-flop very often, made some light river calls (correctly) - this player not super relevant in this hand

Vill 1 straddles $10 UTG, begs Vill 2 to double-straddle since he loves action, Vill 2 actually obliges, dbl straddle $20 (there were very few double straddles throughout the whole session)

- 1 player calls $20 in MP, folds to me
- I raise out of the BB to $80 with A A K T
- Vill 1 (UTG) calls fast
- Vill 2 (UTG+1) pots it to $345
- MP caller folds
- Hero calls - for a few reasons: 1) I want to keep Vill 1 in as he is likeliest to make a huge mistake post flop, 2) I worry that Vill 2 also has AA (which is bad for me), 3) potting it creates an awkward stack-size (assuming 1 caller), 4) I'm oop, 5) my hand is pretty face up, 6) I can only get in about 25% of my stack

PLO EXPERTS: Thoughts on this call pre-flop vs raise?

- Vill 1 thinks for maybe 20-30 seconds (slow for him) and eventually calls.

3 players, Flop K J 2 (POT $1060)

Hero first to act. ??

Comments

  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    If you repot, you could make it $1140 and leave$2860 behind. If only V2 calls, there would be $2385 in the pot on the flop. If both call, there would be $3445.

    If you simulate your hand in propokertools versus a top 5% range for V2 and a 5%-25% range for V1, you will be fine equity-wise getting it in versus one or both of them preflop. If one or both just call preflop and you take a flop, you can GII on almost any flop versus V2. Versus both opponents if you graph the flops in PPT, you will flop >31% equity on almost 90 % of flops. So long story short, I think that 4-betting preflop here is definitely +EV.

    I think you have good reasons for flat-calling preflop. Is it better than just 4-betting? I'm not sure. My main concern with it is that you are going to get flops like this one OOP that are difficult to play. For example, if one opponent has just AsQsxx, he can put a lot of pressure on you but you have 48% equity against this hand.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    CalgaryPokerGuy said:
    $5/5
    - Hero calls - for a few reasons: 1) I want to keep Vill 1 in as he is likeliest to make a huge mistake post flop, 2) I worry that Vill 2 also has AA (which is bad for me), 3) potting it creates an awkward stack-size (assuming 1 caller), 4) I'm oop, 5) my hand is pretty face up, 6) I can only get in about 25% of my stack

    PLO EXPERTS: Thoughts on this call pre-flop vs raise?
    Not a big fan of the way you played this. I know that sitting 4k deep it feels like you're flipping for 4k if you raise/re-raise with AAxx preflop, but this is a very favorable spot for you.

    I think the first mistake was to not pot it pre-flop. You can make it $95 on your first raise. Why dink around with $80? I don't get it. THEN, when V1 calls and V2 pots it, now V2's re-raise is to $405, then you could re-pot to $1335, almost exactly 1/3 of your stack, setting up a pot-sized flop lead all-in on most flops.

    To your points:

    1) keeping V1 in the hand. You are out of position, I don't think you want V1 in the pot even though he is gamboool gamboool bad. V2 will be able to play perfectly against the two of you and squeeze the fuck out of you.

    2) you worry about V2 having AAxx. That is GOOD for you! You have one of the best AAxx hands you could be dealt! You have a suit and two broadway cards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You dominated many other AAxx hands.

    3) potting creates an awkward stack size. True, because you didn't pot pre-flop. I still think you should re-pot V2, because if HE has AAxx, he's likely to just get it in with you anyway pre-flop and you guarantee yourself the ability to realize all of your equity.

    4) you're OOP, a reason you SHOULD re-pot!!! In position, you could play it tricky sometimes and flat and protect your range a bit and also gain more info about V2 hand. But OOP, you are in a tough spot, which is why you want to jam in the moniezzzzz.

    5) Your hand is already face up raising out of the BB to only a few types of hands, AAxx, some KKxx, a few double suited broadway or high-card run-downs.

    6) Again, pot preflop to $95 instead of dinking around with $80 and this is fixed.

    On the flop, did you check/jam, or open pot?
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    One more thing... How in the world could V2 be "not super relevant in the hand" when he is re-potting your pre-flop raise, he has position on you, and he has you covered????!?!??!!!!
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    c/f to V2 or both players, c/jam vs V1 probably. checking through is fine with your hand
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Aesah said:
    c/f to V2 or both players, c/jam vs V1 probably. checking through is fine with your hand
    What about all the pre-flop stuff the OP mentioned?
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    edited May 2015
    stack size is fine. only concern is that other villain also has AA. some of the reasons listed against are actually reasons for, e.g., being OOP. much harder to be OOP in your situation now then just saying "pot" on like 90% of boards
  • CalgaryPokerGuy Posts: 342Subscriber
    edited May 2015
    It sounds like I should have potted it preflop, I just thought that without getting 1/3+ of my stack in that this should more likely be a flat call. (ReedMyLips: I disagree that the villain having AA is good for me, and no AAKT does not "dominate" other AA hands... eg. AA76×× has more equity than AAKT×× - equities do not dominate each other like they do in holdem)

    I forgot to mention, I believed there was also a small chance that V1 would squeeze pre-flop (he really loves playing big pots and putting pressure on opponents), then I could easily get it in, or even fold if V2 re-jams.. (again, if V2 has AA, my equity 3 ways is less than 33%)

    So on the flop I ended up checking. V1 instantly pots it for $1060 and V2 folds without much thought (the reason he ended up not being too relevant in this hand).

    Aesah mentioned c/shoving vs V1 heads up. I may have butchered this hand but I check called with the plan to shove any non-spade turn.

    My thought process was that it was very likely he had AX in his hand. He would pot this hand even with nothing else going for it, although it's likely he also had a pair or SD with it. Because he tank-called the 3-bet pf, I believe he knew that V2 could likely have AA, and him having an ace in his hand is not good for him. Being the gambooooly type, he eventually made the slow call. Once V2 folds fast, I rule out V2 having AA (and the A) as I believe he would have thought a little longer than he did before he folded. I don't believe V1 has KK because of my blocker so the only real value hand is JJ, or maybe 2 pair. Otherwise the only real holding is wrap (with or without fd's) that he's potting the flop with.

    All this is probably a reason to check-shove the flop, but I thought in the event of a spade turn where I'm likely drawing dead I can easily check-fold. And if he checked back, I could have an opportunity to bluff the river to get him off a value hand that has me beat. Also once I shove turn on a brick, I'm putting the rest of my stack in with much more equity (since V1 isn't folding at that point with any hand that he potted flop with).

    Any merit to this thought process?

    Spoiler:
    Turn was a huge card for me, 4 and I shoved. V1 called pretty fast. River brick, V1 wins with K J 9 7 ...
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    CalgaryPokerGuy said:

    I forgot to mention, I believed there was also a small chance that V1 would squeeze pre-flop (he really loves playing big pots and putting pressure on opponents), then I could easily get it in, or even fold if V2 re-jams.. (again, if V2 has AA, my equity 3 ways is less than 33%)
    You could not fold at that point even if V2 turns the other two Aces face-up. While your true equity may be less than 33%, there would already be $795 in the pot, so you don't need 33% equity any more. You aren't that far below 33% anyways:


    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    600,000 trials (Randomized)
    AcAhKdTc 32.38% (91,956 wins, 204,665 ties)
    AA 33.54% (99,631 wins, 203,214 ties)
    5%-25% 34.08% (202,689 wins, 3,580 ties)
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    CalgaryPokerGuy said:

    Aesah mentioned c/shoving vs V1 heads up. I may have butchered this hand but I check called with the plan to shove any non-spade turn.

    My thought process was that it was very likely he had AX in his hand. He would pot this hand even with nothing else going for it, although it's likely he also had a pair or SD with it. Because he tank-called the 3-bet pf, I believe he knew that V2 could likely have AA, and him having an ace in his hand is not good for him. Being the gambooooly type, he eventually made the slow call. Once V2 folds fast, I rule out V2 having AA (and the A) as I believe he would have thought a little longer than he did before he folded. I don't believe V1 has KK because of my blocker so the only real value hand is JJ, or maybe 2 pair. Otherwise the only real holding is wrap (with or without fd's) that he's potting the flop with.
    I also think check/shove versus this described opponent is best OTF. Even against the range below, you have 42% equity. With the money already in the pot, fold equity doesn't even matter.

    ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation
    600,000 trials (Randomized)
    board: K:spade:J:spade:2:club:
    AcAhKdTc 42.33% (246,250 wins, 15,474 ties)
    KK,KJ,jj,A:ss,AQT 57.67% (338,276 wins, 15,474 ties)
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