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simple hand 10-20 LATB

reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
edited May 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I'm watching LATB 10-20 from 4/28/2015 when this simple hand came up:

James limps in MP, Rev opens in HJ to $100, Jason calls in CO with A T, BB also calls, James folds, pot is 3-way, $320 after rake.

Flop is 6 3 2

BB checks, Rev c-bets to like $200, Jason decides to bluff raise to like $730, BB folds, Rev folds.

Owais says, "It's interesting that Jason decided to bluff raise when he could very likely have the best hand with A-high."

So this hand got me thinking. If Jason raises flop, could he ever get Rev off a value hand (most likely an overpair)? Unlikely. Could he get called by worse? Also unlikely. MAYBE you could argue specifically A4 or A5, but those hands only constitute a very small part of Rev's range.

However, is this like the negative equity slowplay, where if Rev is not going to double barrel the turn unless he makes a pair (6 outs), then it's correct to raise now so he doesn't have a free shot at hitting a pair and winning the pot? I get confused here sometimes about when I should just call and "float" (with the best hand some of the time), when I should just fold, and when I should raise.

Thanks for your advice.

Chris

Comments

  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    edited May 2015
    Well the difference between this and the negative equity slow play is in this scenario you don't know you have the best hand. In a neg equity slow play you believe you have the best hand. If hypothetically you know villian has kj and never double barrels unless he hits then you would want to raise the flop.

    As for when to float, raise etc there are too many variables to sum it up in a forum. In this situation it's probably more profitable to call and bet if checked to since villian always barrels when he has it and checks when he doesn't.

    by 1Bart
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    If you raise the flop here with AT you basically need to be barreling turn and river on almost any cards that come. Cards that I may give up on are board pairs but against Rev, who will often fold under pressure, I may continue on with almost anything. Stack depth is going to be an important part of this scenario.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    It depends on the mistakes your opponents make. I don't watch latb, so don't know these guys or their tendencies.

    There are people who Cbet too much on this type of board and don't defend enough to raises. We have good sickout and backdoor potential. Against 88, we have two overcards. Even against KK, we have an overcard. There will be a lot of runouts that will just be hard to call off for marginal over pairs and it still feels gross to call off any bigger pairs.

    Regarding "he could have the best hand with A high"...okay. But he could be beaten by any pair or better ace highs. He could have the best hand with AT and be outdrawn. He could have the worst hand and get the other guy to fold. That reasoning isn't super solid imo. It's too marginal to say that it should absolutely be taken to showdown, so I don't mind turning it into a bluff.

    Fwiw, I'm also fine with flatting flop and raising favorable turn cards or betting twice when he checks. Depends on the board runout and depends if we decide we should raise our value hands on the flop or wait. I'm in between on whether or not we should raise our sets on this board or just flat them. But keeping your bluffs consistent to how you play your value hands is pretty important against other regs.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,917AdministratorLeadPro
    DrGambol said:
    But keeping your bluffs consistent to how you play your value hands is pretty important against other regs.
    In theory this is correct but in reality I disagree. I usually am not continuing on with large bluffs when the board pairs--especially if I think my opponent has an overpair. Whereas if my hand is nutted like a FH or a straight I will continue to pound to get value. This is one of the many example where being unbalanced in live play is going to show a higher profit than making plays to be consistent.

    Bart
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Maybe I'm not explaining clearly enough. I mean that in general, you should keep your bluff lines consistent. For example, if you always flat the flop with T9 on 992r, then I wouldn't expect a reg you play with every day to give you much credit when you raise that flop.

    So on 632r, if we default to raising the flop with our sets/54s, then I like raising flop if we intend to bluff. If we always flat and raise turn with sets/54s, then I wouldn't want to raise the flop as a bluff because we aren't repping anything.

    Different board runouts will definitely change my opinion if it just makes it really hard to have a value hand combo-wise, like the board pairing. If a bluff is -EV due to the board runout and how likely you are to get called, then by all means, ditch the plan.
  • daniel9861 Posts: 207Subscriber
    edited May 2015
    Generally speaking floating is good when you think the opponent is weak sometimes and raising is good when you think the opponent is weak most or close to all of the time. Floating gives you more info about just how strong they really are due to their actions on the next street. There are also other considerations such as how many scare cards are there for V's range, how many double barrel cards are there for V, ect. The more scare cards that hero can use to bluff the more it makes floating an attractive option and the more double barrel cards V can use the more it makes bluff raising now a better option.
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