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Another O8 ? for Bart et al.

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
My normal MO is when i have a premium low only hand or high only hand in O8 I limp from up front.. Like AQTJ or A2 wheel wheel ... If I have a two way hand in ep I may raise or limp depending on the suitedness of the Ace and the wheel card, ie is it a 2 or 3..

From late pos I limp along with high only cards but will raise alot with A suited wheel hands.. My thought process is with high only hands I dont want to bloat a pot before the flop since so many players dont fold and I can take them three streets if I flop a wrap, straight etc... If the flop comes with two small cards I tend to fold my hand as the liklihood of a low being 50% I see no need to staying hoping to chop.

However my thought process with Ace suited wheel cards are opposite. I WANT to build as big a pot as possible knowing my equity to be rather big and having the high likelihood of being able to continue with at worst a nut low draw..

I did this with my Ad2d36 and AsKc2c3s hands last night in the 6/12 game in pos and got 6 and 7 players to call a cap.. On the A236 hand the flop was

A27 all spades and I bet and only one person called my flop bet if you can believe that!

2 on turn and brick on river and I bet turn and river and got called with what I assume was a flush or a bad low. needless to say I scooped that pot..

I think I got lucky in the 700+ pot where something like 5 players called caps on each street .. I made nut low.. I was correct in my hand ranges, one player had set and was trying to "protect" her hand..lol.. one player had flush draw.. one donkey and me with A33x... on 2T7 board.. I only kept calling because with my blocker I was pretty sure I would nut the low.. But should I be calling that many bets for just the low and maybe backdoor wheel? In fact I hit the perfect card on the turn and had 3 outs to scoop on river.. but I was wondering at the time if I should have laid it down on the flop when I saw the betting going crazy..

So is my thinking correct here? Do you occasionally raise with high only hands just to throw players off? I think so but its always good to check with you..Wink



  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sorry another ? if you dont mind.. what about floating flop with backdoor draws like nut lows .. You talked a little about this in your poker with your pants on series and I am always a bit unsure good spots to float..

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    one thought i've had re: O8 is that a lot of times i will raise my strong high only hands after a couple of limpers as they are more likely playing small cards. even in the BB, i've raised strong high only hands with a suited Ace (and probably even KQJT/9ss type hands as well). My thinking is that based on card removal, higher cards are more likely to flop with so many limpers in the pot already. if the flop does come high, i'm not likely to get much value from low hands after the flop, so bump it one time!
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    as you mentioned: raising , 3betting , capping pre with A23Xss is optimal in many cases. it's funny to me though, when i do hold a premium low hand, how often the flop comes QJThh or 99Kr. obv it's memory bias, but it sure seems to come like that a lot
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    chilidog said

    as you mentioned: raising , 3betting , capping pre with A23Xss is optimal in many cases. it's funny to me though, when i do hold a premium low hand, how often the flop comes QJThh or 99Kr. obv it's memory bias, but it sure seems to come like that a lot
    Card removal like you talked about above.. So many other players are also calling with wheel cards.. But when you flop the nut low and you are the only one who has it you will make alot of money on that hand..

    As with the high only hands I dont feel comfortable yet in raising with a lot of players in the pot.. I just would rather see a cheap flop and go from there.. I will still have a good chance to scoop if it hits my range and I am fine with that..

    Oh and I forgot to say that I have been raising more in pos when there are a bunch of players limped in already.. If I had say A23xss and I was first in I tend to limp to encourage others to come along.

    If the pot has been raised and reraised and still at least one caller then I am raising again with A2 wheel wheel.. I see alot of players raise with crap AAxx with no real low draw and get themselves into a lot of trouble. When I raised and capped with my AK23 double suited hand last night I know I was up against a bad AAxx because I hit trip dueces on the turn and a flush on the river (king high) but it also put a third low card on the board but I still scooped.. The other player who had initially raised with either AA3x with no back up low or AAxx and no low.. I dont raise bad AAxx hands and even will fold if its like AA8T badugi..

  • One of the things that really has added to my game over the past two summers at the WSOP is keeping track of pot size. I do it by small bets. The game at the Rio is a $75-$150 to a $100-200 kill where the kill is on I'd say in about 40% of all pots. Because the kill adds so much action and dead money pots get bloated and you end up being in spots where it is correct to peel for backdoors for one small bet on the flop. This is probably the same in the $6-12 game, Wendy. For example lets say a guy raises and 5 people call, including you on the button with Ah 3h Jc 8c. I think of the pot as having 10 small bets in it. The flop comes out 2h Kc 9s. Bet call, call, fold, to you. Now we are looking at 13-1 in immediate odds, with a backdoor nut low draw, two backdoor flush draws, and a backdoor straight draw. In this situation the flop is an easy peel, where as if you had called the pot HU or two handed it becomes an easy fold.

    Maintaining a mental count of pot size in split pot games is paramount just like it is in big bet games.

    As far as your preflop rasiing standards I tend to agree with your approach. I am usually limping in with straight one way hands from up front, whether they are high or low and raising with position premium A2, A3 suited hands. I will open raise hands that are two way and commonly three bet them. Hands like AK23, AAwx, AQ35, AKJ3, etc etc all do well the shorter handed the pot becomes. These high-low hands are not as valuable in deep stacked PLO8 games especially in Big O, but in limit they are gold.

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber

    Thanks this is great information. I do keep track of bets back from my days in limit .. So would you say the cutoff for backdoor draws would be around 10-1? I guess it depends on exactly which draws and whether you have the nut low.

    There was another pot that was raised and multiway and I had the nut backdoor low and straight draw and peeled getting about 10-1. I hit my low for half a good size pot and you should have heard the complaining from some of the players.. lol..

    I am going to continue to grind at 6/12 and build my bankroll so I can take some shots at the 20/40 OE. That has been my favorite game but I just trying to be good and only "gamble" with other peoples money. Even though I can afford to fund my poker I just play so so much better when I have won the money I am playing with as apposed to funding it myself.

    cant wait for June!
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