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2/5 NL Top two decision on wet board 100BBs

El_Jefecito Posts: 119SubscriberProfessional
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 NL $200-$500 buyin 9 handed

Hero is HJ $460 stack - good image, been playing fairly tight
Villain in MP $500 stack -limp calls a ton pre flop, seems pretty stationary

Utg ($1000) limps
Mp limps
HJ QhJc opens to $25
UTG and MP call

Flop ($80) QdJs9d
Utg leads $25
MP calls
HJ raises to $125
UTG folds, MP calls $125

Turn ($355) Qd Js 9d 7d
MP checks
HJ ?????

What do you think is optimal line here on turn vs. opponents range? My plan on the flop raise was to try and set up a turn shove ($300) if a blank rolled out to charge draws and get value from worse two pair type hands but unfortunately it didn't. I really was torn between my original plan, checking back, and bet folding $150-$175 here because the flush draw turning; however stack sizes seemed kind of awkward for that size of a bet fold. A big problem was I really could not seem to put the player on a range of hands because of how passively he had been playing. What do you guys think?

Comments

  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    Due to stack sizes, bet-folding doesn't make a lot of sense IMO, so I am either shoving or checking. Since there are three diamonds out, there are more worse hands that can call you, so I prefer shoving. You get value from KQ, AQ (if he limps that), QT, JT, 9T, AdJx, AdTx, J9, etc.... and maybe other random hands with a high diamond.

    Edit regaring preflop: I am not sure if I like an openraise with this hand in this spot and with only 90 BB. It would be definitely good enough to raise if it was suited. But offsuit, I would consider folding (or limping behind if the table is really passive). By raising, you fold out most hands that you dominate, and get called by many hands which dominate you (also see the thread about limping vs. raising preflop).
  • bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    As played i'm jamming the turn. even though the flush draw came in there is still lots more worse that can call our shove.
  • El_Jefecito Posts: 119SubscriberProfessional
    whatsyourplay? said

    Due to stack sizes, bet-folding doesn't make a lot of sense IMO, so I am either shoving or checking. Since there are three diamonds out, there are more worse hands that can call you, so I prefer shoving. You get value from KQ, AQ (if he limps that), QT, JT, 9T, AdJx, AdTx, J9, etc.... and maybe other random hands with a high diamond.

    Edit regaring preflop: I am not sure if I like an openraise with this hand in this spot and with only 90 BB. It would be definitely good enough to raise if it was suited. But offsuit, I would consider folding (or limping behind if the table is really passive). By raising, you fold out most hands that you dominate, and get called by many hands which dominate you (also see the thread about limping vs. raising preflop).
    I think you summarized my exact thoughts/range i had in my head perfectly as the hand was going on. As mentioned my original plan was to shove turn because I thought this particular opponent would call with AQ, KQ and all other Qx hands that included a draw of some sort, as well as other pair + OESD combinations, and flush draws. The bet fold seemed trivial because I would only have 25-35bbs left going to he river. So I guess it really comes down to whether we think the opponent made a flush on the turn or not? I was leaning more towards checking back here just to try and control the pot size but I really did not want to give the opponent a free card to draw at. Also I was thinking, If we check back and blank comes off on river and the opponent shoves then I'm in a tough spot right?

    In reference to the pre flop play, I occasionally will open/iso QJ off suit in LP if I feel like I have a significant post flop edge on the table which in this case I thought I did. I think it can go either way personally, but I would like to be deeper when doing this
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    MP has played this hand ridiculously passively. Because he's closing the action preflop, I think that we have to assume his range is a bit wider. I would heavily weight all sorts of suited connectors, one-gappers, and suited Aces here.

    Would he open limp with a hand like AQo from middle position? I know you said that he's limp call happy, but that seems to be a bit much, even for your typical live donk. I would tend to discount that hand. KQo though, seems like it could be in his range a lot.

    Based on that range of hands, villian can show up here with flushes and straights a lot, and if he's a pasive as he seems, I feel like a bet fold is out of the question, because he won't raise (especially given the fact that if he's got a half a brain he'll realize that you are committed at that point). Yes, worse can call, and probably would (AdJx is one specific hand that I could see Villian playing this way - problem is there's only two combinations of that hand), but I feel like we are burnign money doing this.

    I think that the best play is to check, and as long as a diamond or a card that makes 4 to a straight doesn't roll off on the river, get it in when he checks to us. We have less than a PSB left, so villian will be getting good odds to call with a top pair or dominated two pair hand. If he bets the river, I think it's a pretty easy fold, as he will show up with a straight or flush here a lot of the time.
  • Mike Posts: 371Member
    I dont think the turn card really changes much TBH. Because of the distribution of the diamonds that are on the board there are not that many combos left. KT/8T already had us beat, anything with the Jd would likely get it in on the flop, AKdd should be raising PF. The only fds i see him having here that are like AT. Not sure if that many people will play small suited cards in raised pots this shallow.

    I think shoving is by far the best play.
  • El_Jefecito Posts: 119SubscriberProfessional
    Thanks for the input all, as it turned out I I ended up shoving the turn going with my original thought thinking I could get value from worse Qx and two pair hands while still charging any draws. The guy ended up calling with AdTx for a turned nut flush draw with an OESD. In essence I like the shove but think a check is fine as well, glad I went with my read of his play and perceived range which is something I'm really focusing on.
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