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plo8: call for tourney life?

later stages of Venetian $600 plo8 tournament (approx 70 of 240 left).

i have been in the same seat all day, but villain has moved to our table a bit more than 1 orbit ago, so not too many reads. he is a 35ish nondescript male with glasses and dark hair, with a possibility of some non-Caucasian ethnicity. i haven't heard him talk, so nothing to add to my read there.

i have been running like crap with some sick quarters when i had my opponents in bad shape and they got there, resulting in sympathy groans from more than 1 person at my table. so i start the hand relatively short.

my typical style in omaha tournaments is not to gamble too much preflop, but rather to evaluate my "fit" with the board and/or strength/weakness of my opponents postflop. however, in this case with a relatively short stack to begin the hand, i am happy to 3bet / get it in pre.

hero: 14.5k chips
villain: 35k-ish chips

preflop (1500 chips, SB - 500, BB - 1000)
villain min raises from utg+1 to 2000. folds to me in the CO and i 3bet to 6500 with A 2 QxQx. folds to villain who calls.

flop (14,500 chips)
A 5 6

villain open ships all in. hero?

(btw -- i've received different answers from respected sources including jeff hwang and bart and others, and i myself thought it was a tough decision which is why i'm posting the hand)

Comments

  • High__Rolla Posts: 752Subscriber
    Doesn't he usually ship pre-flop with AAxx? If so, I put his range on a top 20% hand, typically with an A. Plugging 20%:A!AA into PPT shows you have 42% equity on this board. Folding leaves you with 8,000 while 42% of the pot is 12,390. I think you have to go with it.

    Sometimes you'll run into something bad like AKWW, but often I think he has an A with low cards or 234x or similar.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,298Pro
    I dont play many O8 tournies but I was watching the WSOP final table last night and the standard play there confirmed the answer I would have given. Fold. Saving bets and having a better shot is more important at this stage. Curious what others who play these more think.
  • ZacharyFreeman Posts: 29Member
    I am on the run but saw your question on Twitter about this and. Read high roller response. he is spot on.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    I talked to chili about this and i think villains range is mostly low only hands bluffing for high

    I just cant see villain doing this play that often with any high and low hand. Why does he want chili to fold?

    Given stacks i agree you have to call off i think heros high is good here and his low draw may also be better than villans

    In my experience many players assume you wont call a pot bet if your A2 is counterfeit. But hero has a good high hand too.

    Call. And hope he doesnt have a low with a wrap. Even against naked AA with no low you have 50% chop equity
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Yeah, I hate the spot, but I think you have to call it off. It sucks, I'm about to go play the $1500 PLO8 and I think I may get into spots like this that I NEVER get into in cash games because we're never this short.

    Did you call it off?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    edited June 2015
    Would anyone just flat this preflop in position in a tourney?? I am curious what others think.

    If I raise pre I am going to pot it.. was 6500 pot? lets see 2000 raise so you raise raise at least 3x plus blinds.. so that would have been 1500 more.. thats 7500..

    I like potting a min raise because now there is not decision to be made.. I am going with the hand.. I like it sometimes when I commit myself as in PLO many boards you might not really like but so much of your stack is in there already you have to go with it.

    seems like a subtle difference but I think it can be significant post flop. I am also potting based on villain. If he is a nit I am probably just flatting as OMC types never raise without AAxx.. If I 3 bet OMC then all I am doing is getting it in badly. yeah I have nut low but lows only come 50% if there are two low cards on the board so its always better to have high and low .. If my high is second best then this is not a good spot to get it in for my tourney life.

    That said I see soooooo many players raise get it in with Awww cards.. which as we all know do not play as well heads up or in hot/cold equities.

    In my first wsop plo8 tourney a ep player I didnt recognize (ie not named pro) raised pot I 3 bet pot with AAT3 double suited to aces. and he called. probably standard but it put more than 50% of my stack in there.

    Flop was like 5 6 8 or something like that with two clubs and I didnt have ace high flush for that. he bets pot I snap call off. he has A2cc46 or something like that.. he just flopped a monster.. but I still had the high and A3 for a low.. so I think he would have been happy to get me to fold. Of course the flush comes on the turn and the miracle 2 doesnt and I am out.. but you see how the ship after calling the 3 bet imho is generally a low trying to push a better high or any high off their equity.

    ww
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Would anyone just flat this preflop in position in a tourney?? I am curious what others think.
    I would with deeper stacks for sure. But if down to only 15bb, I'm three-betting getting it in.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    reedmylips said:
    Thehammah said:
    Would anyone just flat this preflop in position in a tourney?? I am curious what others think.
    I would with deeper stacks for sure. But if down to only 15bb, I'm three-betting getting it in.
    BTW when are you getting into town? I am flying out tomorrow afternoon.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    reedmylips said:
    Yeah, I hate the spot, but I think you have to call it off. It sucks, I'm about to go play the $1500 PLO8 and I think I may get into spots like this that I NEVER get into in cash games because we're never this short.

    Did you call it off?
    Spoiler:
    I folded the flop after deliberation. I ended up thinking that he likely thought I'm never going to fold with half my chips in getting 3:1, so I folded. Quite possible he only had a low hand but pretty much any reasonable low hand has a straight draw too. tournament life played a role here too -- it's not 100% about the equity I have vs his range.

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    so chiili my argument with that is this:

    1) yes you will still be in the tourney if you fold. that said your tourney equity by now being so short is not much bigger than if you were busted..

    2) the tourney equity you have if you call off and are good is so tremendous that its worth it.

    3) you can be exploited later by folding when someone is just potting into you. In plo8 this is just not good as that pressure along can limit your tourney equity too much..

    ww
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    High__Rolla said:
    Doesn't he usually ship pre-flop with AAxx? If so, I put his range on a top 20% hand, typically with an A. Plugging 20%:A!AA into PPT shows you have 42% equity on this board. Folding leaves you with 8,000 while 42% of the pot is 12,390. I think you have to go with it.

    Sometimes you'll run into something bad like AKWW, but often I think he has an A with low cards or 234x or similar.
    So first of all, if your strategy is to not gamble too much pre and instead see how your hand fits with the flop (a strategy I agree with for PLO8 donkaments), I see no reason to 3-bet pre here.

    You don't even mind a few over callers with your hand who might get it in with lower flush draws, lower sets, worse low draws (and worse high hands), etc.

    You also are giving up position in the hand, and not forcing villain (and likely everyone else) to play flops and turns OOP.

    All of that said, as played, I would go with the hand due to math, but not like it. Too easy to be being free rolled here, but you've put yourself in a spot where you can't fold.
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