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Play a hand with me. KK in the SB

Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
edited June 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hi guys,

This is my first OP.

This is a 5/5 game (400-700) with an effective stack against UTG+1 of ~850. I've been sat for around 3 hours, very card dead making the odd move here and there with mixed success. In the session I have played very few hands for me. Recently a couple of amateur stations joined the table and I was optimistic that the table would improve. I was in for $1250.

UTG+1 is a fairly ok winning player, who often likes to play a little bit of a LAG style pre flop and is capable of raising and 3 betting light in position. I noticed in this session he had been less active than normal and we hadn't tangled in an significant pots. I have a fair bit of history with him and he respects my game and in the previous session asked my opinion on the way he played a hand and what range I was putting his opponent on.

Blinds 5/5
UTG folds UTG+1 opens to 25

This raise was pretty standard for the table and a standard open for this player.

I would assign a range 77+ all suited Broadway's, AKo, AQo and maybe KQo & AJo sometimes depending on table dynamics.

The 2 new stationary players call , one from MP and the other from the Button.

The pot is (5+5+25+25+25) 85 and I look down at KsKd and 3 bet.

The effective stacks with UTG+1 is ~850 who has me covered and the other two have around 550-600 each.

I raise to ...........( from the SB) (starting stack 850)

Your sizing, your reasoning and you post flop plan and I'll then post what I did and why.

«1

Comments

  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    A 3 bet to $125. If you lave less than UTG+1 V shouldn't the effective stacks be based off your stack? And the stations have 550-600 so that makes the effective stacks $550?
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    Floyd said:
    A 3 bet to $125. If you lave less than UTG+1 V shouldn't the effective stacks be based off your stack? And the stations have 550-600 so that makes the effective stacks $550?
    I have ~850 & UTG+1 has me covered.

    Do you think a 5 x raise to 125 is likely to get called by worse by a perceived decent player who raised in EP? If he folds are the stationy (not stationary as in OP) players likely to call or do we lose a lot of value by a 5 x raise?

    I didn't want to win a pot of 85 by folding out so many hands that we are ahead of and imo a raise to 125 would often do just that.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    okay so 850 effective. I thought that myself but with 850 effective stack against villan we need to start building this pot so we can get all the money in on turn or river.
    If we only 3 bet say 3 × raise to $75 and we get just the UTG V to call. Pot is $200 going to the flop. Stacks are now 775. If we get one station to come along pot is now $250.

    On the other hand if we 3 bet 5 × raise the pot is $250 with just the V in the hand. If a station comes along the pot is now $400. So we can now bet $250-300 on flop when we flop well and easily get it in on the turn.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    I like the bigger sized 3 bet because it looks more like 10's, JJ, QQ trying to protect. More so than when we raise only 3× raise trying to milk with KK, AA.
  • YoungGrinder Posts: 210Subscriber
    I would just like to add as a caveat - if you believe that he is going to fold out a large part of his range 80%+ to the large sizing then you should be 3 betting him large as a bluff.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    confused...
    are we the button? if not, what position are we in with K K
    also...
    why are you giving a description of UTG when he folds pre-flop?
    how do we know new players are stationy?
    how can effective stack be 850 if UTG+1 has us covered? and our stack is 1250?
  • ACK Posts: 428Subscriber
    Is it just me that doesn't like "play a hand with me" threads?
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    beauregard said:
    confused...
    are we the button? if not, what position are we in with K K
    also...
    why are you giving a description of UTG when he folds pre-flop?
    how do we know new players are stationy?
    how can effective stack be 850 if UTG+1 has us covered? and our stack is 1250?
    The title of the post is KK in the SB. I've also now edited OP to reconfirm that I was in the SB and my stack was ~850

    The description of the player is for UTG+1, my bad. (Op now edited)

    I knew that the recent new players were stationy as since they sat down they were calling preflop raises lots and limp calling raises pre so you will have to take my word for it. They had been playing for about 20 mins.

    I didn't say my stack was 1250, I merely said that I was in for 1250 (for the session to give an indication as to how the session had gone for me) which has caused confusion. The effective stack between UTG+1 (who had me covered) was about 850 (my stack)



    ACK, if you have nothing constructive to add, just ignore the thread and do some blogging instead. I hoped this forum would be more troll free.

    Young Grinder - yes I totally agree, you make a good point.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    3b to $115-125. Start building a pot so you can get your stack in the middle.
  • Bonezy Posts: 82Subscriber
    i like a 3bet to like 145. reason being is I want to get the action to maybe hu. Im also raising this big because I am oop and there are a few fishy type players in this hand and they might overcall. I like basing my raises on which players are in the hand. If there are some fishy type players in the hand I like to make it bigger because they are most likely not looking a sizing and are just looking at thier own hand strengh. If the preflop raiser 4bets me im most likely getting it in with him unless I have some insane read that he would only do this will AA( im likely never folding KK pre).
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Okay so what actaully happened? What did you three bet to? and who called? And what came on the flop?
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    I raised to 105 for value as I wanted at least one call and wouldn't have been too concerned to have all 3 call. I thought that a raise to 125+ might just get everyone to fold.

    UTG+1 calls who was the initial PFR and the other two players fold.

    Heads up to the flop.

    Pot 265 with 745 effective remaining
    8 3 J

    I'm now first to speak with KsKd

    Do we check or bet and what is our plan for the rest of the hand?

    Are we committed?



  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,977SubscriberProfessional
    There are a lot of hands we can get value from an EP raiser. QQ, AJ, A K are all going to call at least one bet, not to mention FDs and other hands with some backdoor equity. I'm betting flop, and probably getting it in - $175.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,386Subscriber
    The villain should only have pairs and AcKc, AcQc, maybe AcJc. You want value from draws and pairs. About $155 on the flop should allow you get the money in the middle by the river.

    745-155 leaves you with $590. The pot will be $575, leaving you about a pot size bet.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Checking is definately out of the question. Am never checking here. Betting $200 on this board. As many have said so many hands to extract value from. Betting $200 leaves us with $545 for the river and a $665 pot. I don't even mind betting close to pot on this flop. A bet of $250 with just under $500 stack and over $700 pot on river, for an easy river shove for value.
    Depending how tight this guy plays if he re raises shoves our flop bet I'm not sure im folding. So many FDs with over cards

    What hands do you think are in his 3 bet calling range pre?
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    I kept saying river I meant turn. If no A or club falls on turn I'm definately betting atleast half pot. AJ, QQ and even AcKc and AcQc arn't going to get away from the hand. 99 and TT probably going to fold to turn bet but I'm not sure you are going to get much value from those hands on the river even if you check turn. Which would be suicide as a lot of his range has flush draws in it.

    Do you think hands like Ac9c, AcTc, KcQc are in his 3 bet calling range?
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    I bet 170 into the pot of 265 leaving me 575 behind.

    He thinks about it for 8-10 seconds and raises to 350 :???:

  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    Floyd said:
    Depending how tight this guy plays if he re raises shoves our flop bet I'm not sure im folding. So many FDs with over cards

    What hands do you think are in his 3 bet calling range pre?
    This player is a regular daytime grinder. Certainly not a crusher but no fool either.

    There are very few FD's in his range I believe. AKcc, AQcc, AJcc less likely so let's assume 2 for the AJ AQ.

    There are 8 combos of AK remaining that we beat.

    There are 6 combos of QQ

    There are 3 combos of JJ and 3 combos of 88. I would rule out a set of 3's because of the early position pfr.

    There are 6 combos of AA that he could have flatted in position.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    How often do you think he is going to flat AA in position pre?
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    This is definitely a close spot. also how often would he be re raising you on the flop with overpair?
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