Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Leak

Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
edited June 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I don't have an accurate account of whether I am ahead or behind on these bets, but they lose big when they go wrong. Betting after double checked heads up on the river with a weak pair or nothing. When I am running good, I take down a lot of pots when a scare card hits the board on the river. But sometimes a good player will raise pre, then raise the flop, then check, check, shove on my river semi-bluff bet.

Comments

  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    You can't semi-bluff the river. It's either a value bet or a bluff. If you don't know which, you shouldn't be betting.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    Me no speekee poker language well. I think you know what I was saying, but why past up a chance to be a smart ass.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    Maybe I am on the third level for confusion, but my understating of your misuse of semi-bluff is that you were bluffing with equity in the hope of sometimes being having the best hand when called. In this context, my previous comment was solid advice. Maybe you can clarify your actual question?
  • Johnny_UtahJohnny_Utah Posts: 402Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    Just to throw in my .02 cents....I mean why not. Ha! Yeah what @AJoff is saying is that you cannot semi-bluff on the river. The only time you can actually be semi-bluffing is on the flop and turn....

    @Jack7777 the scenario you gave in the OP is common. I for one had to cut out a lot of river bluffs b/c of ppl's inability to fold. I assume on the OP the action is villain raise PF, cbets flop, ck-ck turn and then when you try and bluff river your getting called or raised. That's extremely common in NLH these days in my opinion. Like Bart says in all of his training material, "people are showdown monkeys."
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    AJoff said:
    You can't semi-bluff the river. It's either a value bet or a bluff. If you don't know which, you shouldn't be betting.
    If you don't know you shouldn't be betting. That's just a smart ass post because I said it the wrong way.

  • BartBart Posts: 5,835AdministratorLeadPro
    edited June 2015
    Jack777--
    I don't think that anyone is trying to be a smart ass in their responses here. From a far, and I have no interest in this debate it looks like you are taking this the wrong way.

    All poker terms are basically made up english by someone but what what most of us understand the term semi-bluff to mean is bluffing with a hand that has some sort of equity where if called it has a chance to make the best hand. You can't semi bluff the river because the are no more cards to come therefore you either have the best hand or you don't. Which leads into the next part of this conversation which is that betting the river can only serve two purposes--1. Value. 2. Bluffing.

    If your hand fits in between (will not get called by worse and will not get better to fold) than a check is proper. Sounds to me like from your post your hand has some showdown value but you use a scare card to turn it into a bluff but then suspect that you are getting raised as a bluff off of your hand?

    Bart
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    Johnny_Utah said:
    Just to throw in my .02 cents....I mean why not. Ha! Yeah what @AJoff is saying is that you cannot semi-bluff on the river. The only time you can actually be semi-bluffing is on the flop and turn....

    @Jack7777 the scenario you gave in the OP is common. I for one had to cut out a lot of river bluffs b/c of ppl's inability to fold. I assume on the OP the action is villain raise PF, cbets flop, ck-ck turn and then when you try and bluff river your getting called or raised. That's extremely common in NLH these days in my opinion. Like Bart says in all of his training material, "people are showdown monkeys."
    Thanks. I don't complain when they call with nothing to second pair. I just have to pull back and watch doing it. Where I get trapped is when it's, open, big bet, check, check. I think these are players who have seen me bluff off pots, but back down when beat. I feel they are experienced enough to think I would not call a turn or river bet. But they know my tendency to steal pots on the river.
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Jack777--
    I don't think that anyone is trying to be a smart ass in their responses here. From a far, and I have no interest in this debate it looks like you are taking this the wrong way.

    All poker terms are basically made up english by someone but what what most of us understand the term semi-bluff to mean is bluffing with a hand that has some sort of equity where if called it has a chance to make the best hand. You can't semi bluff the river because the are no more cards to come therefore you either have the best hand or you don't. Which leads into the next part of this conversation which is that betting the river can only serve two purposes--1. Value. 2. Bluffing.

    If your hand fits in between (will not get called by worse and will not get better to fold) than a check is proper. Sounds to me like from your post your hand has some showdown value but you use a scare card to turn it into a bluff but then suspect that you are getting raised as a bluff off of your hand?

    Bart
    I really wasn't talking about the words, but him telling me I shouldn't be betting. Sometimes, I might have second pair. Sometimes, I might not have anything. That is the mistake I made calling it wrongly a semi--bluff when I had a little piece of the board, but not a winner. I am making these bets because that's pretty much the only way I think I can win the pot. So they are bluffs.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber


    I really wasn't talking about the words, but him telling me I shouldn't be betting. Sometimes, I might have second pair. Sometimes, I might not have anything. That is the mistake I made calling it wrongly a semi--bluff when I had a little piece of the board, but not a winner. I am making these bets because that's pretty much the only way I think I can win the pot. So they are bluffs.[/quote]

    If an abstract individual does not know if the purpose behind said individual's bet is getting a better hand to fold OR getting a worse hand to call, that individual should not be betting.... Feel better now?

    Maybe I am still misunderstanding you when you say, "I don't mind when they call with nothing to second pair", but the driver for you making a bluff shouldn't be having a piece of the board. If you get called by worse, it's generally a poor bluff, as the villain would probably not fold a better hand than the one he called you with.

  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    AJoff said:


    I really wasn't talking about the words, but him telling me I shouldn't be betting. Sometimes, I might have second pair. Sometimes, I might not have anything. That is the mistake I made calling it wrongly a semi--bluff when I had a little piece of the board, but not a winner. I am making these bets because that's pretty much the only way I think I can win the pot. So they are bluffs.
    If an abstract individual does not know if the purpose behind said individual's bet is getting a better hand to fold OR getting a worse hand to call, that individual should not be betting.... Feel better now?

    Maybe I am still misunderstanding you when you say, "I don't mind when they call with nothing to second pair", but the driver for you making a bluff shouldn't be having a piece of the board. If you get called by worse, it's generally a poor bluff, as the villain would probably not fold a better hand than the one he called you with.

    [/quote]
    OK.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    edited June 2015
    Back to your original question which is how to steal pots on the river without getting trapped. You have already identified a pattern (open big check check) that is trappy for some players. Just dont ever try to steal from those players. Instead consider checking some value hands behind to make it look like you are stealing on the river then get it in.

    For other villains, keep experimenting with stealing until you lean what works for them. There is no rule that says how to do it in every situation. How much to bet, how fast to bet, etc all are villain and even situation dependent (are they up, stuck, tired, etc)
  • Jack7777 Posts: 655Subscriber
    FreeLunch said:
    Back to your original question which is how to steal pots on the river without getting trapped. You have already identified a pattern (open big check check) that is trappy for some players. Just dont ever try to steal from those players. Instead consider checking some value hands behind to make it look like you are stealing on the river then get it in.

    For other villains, keep experimenting with stealing until you lean what works for them. There is no rule that says how to do it in every situation. How much to bet, how fast to bet, etc all are villain and even situation dependent (are they up, stuck, tired, etc)
    Thanks. I was thinking as I wrote the post, just stop trying to steal pots from this type V. It helps to put it in words and see other opinions. I post on this site because of mostly helpful and supportive advice. I have been thinking along the lines you mention, target the player and watch the one size fits all approach. Sometimes, I get to running hot and think I can get away with too much. I'll experiment with checking back some value hands.
Sign In or Register to comment.