Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Line Check

3-5, $450 effective
Late position

Loose aggressive player limps in for 5 from early and one player over limps before it gets to me...

I have K9o
I bump it to 20 to isolate.

He calls and over limper folds

Flop
K 6 2 r

The K on the flop is a heart
He checks
I bet 30 and he calls quickly

Turn
K 6 2 9

I now have 2 pair. The 9 puts another heart on the board.

He Checks

Pot is now about 100

I bet 50

He agonizes for a couple of minutes then calls

River

K 6 2 9 T

The T is another heart

He goes all-in

Pot is 200 and its 250 to call

Runner-runner straight and flush just came in. KT is also a possible holding.

What would you do?

Comments

  • WilburTrey Posts: 44Subscriber
    I fold K9o preflop.

    As played, as much as it is stinky what do we really beat here that shoves? we lose to K10, QJ, KK,66,22,99,1010, we lose to Flushes..it is time to give this hand up.

    we beat K6,K2, 92, 96, 109, 102, Are these in his preflop calling range? Doubtful.
  • ANason21ANason21 Posts: 166Subscriber
    Fold.

    What does he get here with? He "agonized for a couple minutes" before calling the turn bet. Does he really agonize over calling a bet with a set or two pair on that board? Given V's agonizing over a turn call, I don't really think KK, 22, 66, 99 are in his range. I also don't think he agonizes over a call and then just shoves any river card, which suggests that the ten changed the value of his hand for the better. So it makes sense for him to show up here with Ax of hearts, QJ, TT, or KT. It doesn't really make much sense for him to show up with anything you beat.

    Also, fold preflop.
    by 1Floyd
  • StarwarsJediMasterStarwarsJediMaster Posts: 741Subscriber
    I don't really love the iso pre as played I like a bit of a bigger bet on the turn but is not that bad, sometime players have unbalanced timing tells( Tank Hollywood) on the flop and turn, something to keep a eye on. "He goes all-in Pot is 200 and its 250 to call "
    Pot is 450 and its 250 to call (1.8 odds so you have to be good 1 out of 2.8 to call fyi)
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    I would bet a lot bigger on the turn. If he has KT-AK, he should call up to a pot size bet on this board.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    When a loose aggressive player limps in early position, how are you expecting to win your money with K9o? Are you going to be rebluffing him? Calling down light vs his raises? Why is ISOing him good?

    Reason I ask is that you have 2 pair, get jammed on, and have a tough decision. A majority of the time, you will be put in these bad spots when you don't have 2 pair and instead have top pair weak kicker, middle pair, or air. He's going to own you postflop by making you fold a lot. So just fold preflop. You need a much stronger hand to isolate pre with.

    I'd check the flop back and hope he bluffs. We really can't get 3 streets of value with top pair and a weak kicker. So might as well bluff catch. If he checks turn too, we can gladly go for 2 streets of value.

    As played on turn, you have to bet larger. Half pot is tiny. Try to get value from his better Kx hands and get him to call 2 bigger bets (3/4 pot or so). Notice how we are trying to target his better Kx combos when we go for 3 streets, which a big reason why checking the flop becomes a good option.

    River, gross but I think it's probably a fold. People just don't x/c x/c lead jam as a bluff. If he felt like bluffing, he'd probably x/r a street instead. Probably mid pair plus backdoor flush draw.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    At not even 100bb deep I agree with DrGambol. If you were a lot deeper I would completely disagree but I would never just raise 20. In generally your bet sizing is very weak.

    You may be putting too much emphases on his "agonizing" - that could easily been an act. The odd river lead - was it really fast or did he have to think?
  • Polarized Posts: 195Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    When a loose aggressive player limps in early position, how are you expecting to win your money with K9o? Are you going to be rebluffing him? Calling down light vs his raises? Why is ISOing him good?
    Villain is described as a LAG and with a limp and an overlimp, this for me is quite a standard spot to raise in position but I don't think a fold is too bad.

    Yeah, K9o is pretty much the bottom of my range, but we have the initiative and position and a K for card removal. We are repping stronger than what an LAG limp calls with and if we have a good image we can barrel flips and turn on decent boards and also rep an A.

    On the flop, I think we are ahead of V's range and it's a must bet. Checking the flop to me is bad and just giving a lag the initiative and allowing yourself to get lost in the hand.

    The flop bet is fine imo. A6 K6 with a back door draw is likely to peel, as is an underpair.

    The turn is ok, but I probably bet a little bigger (65-70) to get value from a loose player with K10 KJ KQ and optimistic draws.

    The river is quite an easy fold as the hand played out. We have repped a strong hand and V has told us AK is no good.

    If villain had checked river, I think this is a must bet/fold small for value to get a call from KQ KJ, K8.

    Op, I think you played it fine.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    NutPeddler said:


    Yeah, K9o is pretty much the bottom of my range, but we have the initiative and position and a K for card removal. We are repping stronger than what an LAG limp calls with and if we have a good image we can barrel flips and turn on decent boards and also rep an A.
    What does a king blocker have to do anything against a lag? The point of blockers is to make it more mathematically probable that he won't be able to play back. When a guy is calling your preflop raise 100% of the time, the blocker effect is essentially pointless. If we are cold 4 betting preflop, then blockers matter. We would block a big portion of his shoving range by blocking KK and AK. But against a lag limp/caller, he's never folding. It's not like he's sitting there with Q8s thinking, "well damn, I'm going to fold because I don't have at least king high".

    I don't see how K9o has good barreling potential. We have a hand that will rarely turn backdoor straight draws and isn't suited. Not many flops we can just barrel away on unless it's a spot where our cards don't matter. 75s would be a hand where we can barrel a lot of turns because we can't often turn backdoor flush draws and straight draws. K9o is pretty junky in that aspect.

    On the flop, I think we are ahead of V's range and it's a must bet. Checking the flop to me is bad and just giving a lag the initiative and allowing yourself to get lost in the hand.

    This logic is flawed. If the flop comes K62r and we have A3, KK, or QQ, we are ahead of the lag's range, but it doesn't mean that it's a must bet. With all of those hands, we can make good arguments for checking. A3 has some showdown value with ace high, so maybe making a delayed Cbet is better. With KK, we clearly are ahead of his range, but maybe it's better to let him catch up. When we have QQ, we are ahead of his range, but we have problems getting called by worse for multiple barrels and we are unlikely to get outdrawn, so checking makes sense. Just because we are ahead of their range, doesn't mean we should bet.

    But even more importantly, the idea that giving the lag the imitative being a bad thing is really wrong. If his main mistake is playing too many hands and bluffing too much, then let him bluff! Why do we want to bet and make him fold all his air? Doesn't make any sense. We won't be lost since we have the read that he's a lag. My plan would be to call down pretty much any runout unless he does something weird like overbet jam.
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    edited June 2015
    Fold preflop. isoraising a LAG with K9o is probably a leak.

    check/call, check/call, lead river line is usually a very strong hand. He probably tanked because he had a draw and was thinking about calling vs raising with a draw or he has a very strong hand.

    What does a lag limp-call with PREFLOP? probably not 1010+, AK, AQ as he would probably raise with that preflop. Possibly 99. Probably 22-88. KQs, KJs, KTs, QJs, QTs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s. A2s-AJs. Does he limp K-x suited hands below KTs or offsuit broadways?

    On the flop of K 6 2 rainbow with 1 heart being the king of hearts, what hands does he call with on OOP. Will he float you OOP with air, overcard and backdoor flush draw, back door flush draw? What is your image at the table? What is his check-call range on this flop based upon the preflop action?

    Turn Kh 6 2 9h. What kind of heart draws could he have here? He cannot have Kh-xh or 9h-xh because a Kh and 9 h are on the board. So he may have Ah2h, Ah6h, QhJh/QJs, other Ah-xh hands and other hands such as, 22, 66, 99, 87s, KT, K9.

    The river brings in the hearts flush and brings in possible straight draws and the straight flush draw. What hands does he show up with that would shove the river? Likely Ah-xh and QJs/QJo. He might also jam the river with a KT, 66, 22, 78s, and possibly a few missed straight draws. There are not many combos of made hands that you beat on the river and there are many combos of hands in his range that beat you on the river. I do not think he has too many bluffs in his range to offset the times where he has hands that beat you. I would probably fold on the river as played. If he is bluffing with a missed draw or an a pair less than top pair then so be it. Fold preflop.


  • LuckyDucky Posts: 139Subscriber
    Regarding pre-flop: David Chan explicitly recommends isolating lag players with a wider range of hands when you have position (see video 186). I was in late position and was confident I would get the villain heads up.

    I was expecting more aggression from him on either the flop or turn.

    My smallish bet on the turn was supposed to induce a big check-raise from him. His style so far was to put pressure on other players with check raises and big bets.

    I've also seen him bet-fold or even check-raise fold. I was planning to re-raise him if he led out or check-raised me on the flop or turn as a counter-bluff if I missed.

    The way he played against me in this hand was atypical for him- which had my alarm bells ringing by the river.

    Sadly, we won't know what he had as I folded.

  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    LuckyDucky said:
    Regarding pre-flop: David Chan explicitly recommends isolating lag players with a wider range of hands when you have position (see video 186). I was in late position and was confident I would get the villain heads up.

    I was expecting more aggression from him on either the flop or turn.

    My smallish bet on the turn was supposed to induce a big check-raise from him. His style so far was to put pressure on other players with check raises and big bets.

    I've also seen him bet-fold or even check-raise fold. I was planning to re-raise him if he led out or check-raised me on the flop or turn as a counter-bluff if I missed.

    The way he played against me in this hand was atypical for him- which had my alarm bells ringing by the river.

    Sadly, we won't know what he had as I folded.

    So you've seen him check/raise/fold and your plan was to re-raise his check/raise with a value hand? So you wanted him to fold his bluffs? I really don't get your logic at all. What does this accomplish?
  • LuckyDucky Posts: 139Subscriber
    Nooo... I was going to call down his bluffs but raise him off the hand if I didn't have showdown value...

    So you've seen him check/raise/fold and your plan was to re-raise his check/raise with a value hand? So you wanted him to fold his bluffs? I really don't get your logic at all. What does this accomplish?
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited June 2015
    Preflop depends on the limping tendencies of the first LAG limper. If he tends to limp weak hands in EP, or if you have a preflop live tell that he is limping weak here, then this is a good spot for an ISO-raise with K9o. With that said, I would usually ISO-raise to $25-$30 here instead of $20...especially if I consider K9o to be a semi-bluff instead of a pure value ISO-raise (in this case, it seems more like a semi-bluff).

    As played, flop cbet and sizing is fine. There are also some arguments for checking back flop if you had a nitty image and/or Villains in hand had a tendency to go bluff crazy if flop gets checked through. You didn't volunteer any reads regarding your image or Villain aggro tendencies versus a flop check back, so your flop cbet and sizing is fine in a vacuum.

    As played, turn bet and sizing is fine.

    On river, you lose to KT/6xhh/TT and some weirdly slowplayed sets that he was Hollywooding. I don't see very many worse hands that would take this line, and I doubt that he is bluffing a 54/53/43 gutshot because he would have had to call flop AND turn with just a gutter. At these stakes, Villain is almost never turning a weak Kx hand into an overbet bluff.

    Barring live tells, I would hero fold river.

    by 13aces
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Why would a LAG agonize over a small turn bet getting 3:1 if he had a strong draw like a flush draw or straight draw? Those are nowhere near agonizing decisions.
Sign In or Register to comment.