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Classic Situation when Out of Position with Top Pair

It is a 1/2 home game but stacks are super deep (400~500 BB). Table is full of loose passive players and very juicy.
Hero opens to $12 UTG with K J , MP1 and Button and BB call. so it is 4 way to the flop.
pot $49 flop: J 5 T
BB checks, hero bets $25, MP1 folds, button calls, BB folds. so it is heads up.
pot $99 turn: 8
I thought this is a horrible card and could not see getting value from any worse hand so I decided to check/call. I thought to myself villain is passive so he may check it back or bet small but to my surprise, he made a hefty bet of $75 into a $99 pot.
I decided to fold.

1- Should I just bet/fold the turn? what if he cold calls in position with a made straight or made flush? when he cold calls the turn in position I never know if he is drawing or he is already there!

2- What if he calls the turn and river is another bad card which makes a 4 card straight or 4 card flush? should I block bet/fold on the river? check fold? or check call?

This situation has happened to me a lot that I bet with top pair or over pair on the flop out of position and get called and a horrible or scary turn card shows up and I don't know what to do.

Please advice.



  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    you're question reminds me of an old Henny Youngman vaudeville joke: I go to the doctor and say, "Doctor, doctor - it hurts when I do this (lifting his arm). What should I do?" So the doctor says, "Don't do this!"

    I think raising K J from utg is begging for someone to steal the pot away from you.
    against a table full of loose players - I prefer to follow Tuck's advice of playing tight oop and looking for an excuse to play a hand in position.

    BTW: if I know that you play "fit-or-fold," I call with my entire range on the button. And I bet out any time you check.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Can't say I like the raise UTG with KJs. Just making life difficult. Much better off keeping the pot small and just limping, planning on folding to a raise and hopefully see a cheap flop if the the table is that passive.
    Turn is a check fold. Passive players don't just semi bluff out of no where. If you did think he could semi bluff here with say nut FD and then river bricks out. It's still probably a check fold. Unlikely he double barrels on a bluff here. Long story short don't play KJ OOP.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    limping is worse than raising.. if you are going to play KJ then raising is best. especially if the table is passive.

    when the player calls the flop cbet and the obvious draw comes in the turn why not bet again? what do you mean you dont think you can get value from other hands? Qh Jx is going to call ThJx probably will call Ahx will call for sure..

    furthermore you also protect your equity in the pot against any random heart that another player might have called the flop with..

    that said turn is about bet sizing. and then folding to a raise.. so I like to bet around half pot you can bet say $65 and for sure get called by worse. Most players that dont have the nut flush will raise you in this spot but will not raise you with virtually any other hand. Not even two pair is going to raise you in this spot. so you are likely to get called by draws worse jacks with hearts and not get raised by anyone other than a player with a non nut made flush..

    if the player calls you and no heart comes then bet kinda small again maybe $75-90 to get called by worse jacks or a pair that wont fold given the odds you are giving them. again it will be really hard for anyone to raise you without a flush and if they do they likely have the nut flush they were slowplaying on the turn. easy fold given how deep.

    by 1dpbuck
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    Opening KJs is fine, unless you have some aggro players behind. I agree with WW limping here is not necessarily the best option. If you're going to play it why not play for an open or fold and look to play this in position.

    Your half pot bet given that you likely have the best hand and can be called by a worse Jx, T, 99, Broadway's, or FD is a little too light for me personally. I would size this to like 35. Almost all Jacks are calling, Tx calls, maybe 99-66, and any draws.

    On the turn, you just give the your villains the opportunity to steal the pot by checking. If you're checking, it should be to fold, not call, in my opinion. The button is wide here, and may have a J, he may have a flush, or a T. Your check just puts you in a tough spot. If you check call here you're more like to fold on the river when a scare card comes that completes a lot of draws. You won't be happy to see any of these: A, K, Q, T, 9, 7 etc.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Why do want to start building a pot OOP with a hand that can be easily dominated? Why are we raising? Are we trying to get worse to call for value? Our hand isn't great and we are going to be OOP. Why not limp on a really passive loose table?
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I'm not opening KJs UTG at a loose/passive table (and I'm definitely not limping it either!). At a tighter table it's an open, but not at the table described. You're going to end up way too often in the exact spot you ended up in: out of position with a good-not-great hand and lost on what to do.

    The turn is a bet/fold. There are still hands you can get value from. I agree completely with Wendy's turn assessment. By checking, your turning your hand face up and giving villain the green light to bomb turn and river with his entire range.
  • LesterDiamondLesterDiamond Posts: 152Subscriber
    At a tight table...KJdd is an open...at a loose table it's a fold.......makes sense.
  • the_machine Posts: 202Subscriber
    I actually disagree with others here and think all three options preflop are ok. No need to discuss raising or folding so...
    If the table is very loose passive I think limping can be fine. What I've found in 1-2 is that loose passive players will limp behind some limps with trashy Broadway cards looking to flop top pair. They call with K5o or J4o and with very nutty potential, I think it is ok to limp. I'm not looking to limp call a $12 open, but I think missing out on the opportunity to get into a pot, deep, with a nut potential hand is worth the 1bb
    by 1Floyd
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