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Please teach me these fundamentals!

It is a 1/2 home game and stacks are deep (300~400 BB). It is a live straddle UTG for $5.
MP1,MP2,CO (hero), BTN, SB, BB all limp. hero holds 6 3 and is on the cut off.
UTG who had straddled raises $16 more ($21 total) and all limpers call! (it is a loose table!). hero also called since he had position and stacks were deep.
So it is 7 way to the flop. pot is (7x21=$147)
flop:Q 4 3
everybody checks to hero, hero bets $45. everyone folds except MP1 who calls. so now it is heads up. Effective stack is $420 and hero covers villain.
pot is $237, turn is 6
villain checks, hero bets $125, villain tanks and calls.
pot is $487, river is T
now villain donk shoves all in for $295.

here are my questions, I appreciate your answers:

1- what is your flop bet sizing when it is multiway (here 7 players)? do you still bet 2/3 of the pot? does bet sizing vary when it is heads up or multiway? does it stay 2/3 of the pot regardless of the number of players?

2-on the river, should I be good 295/(487+295) of time or 295/(487+295+295) of time to justify a call? which one? I am confused, what is my river pot odd?

3- should hero fold or call? I don't think villain is bluffing in this spot ever. He has seen me betting the flop and turn but still shoves all in on the river.

Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    edited July 2015
    Quick side observation - there was a thread about way ahead way behind that highlighted a hand that was not a good example of WAWB. Now all of a sudden this is one of the several threads in the last few days that are really good examples of WAWB.

    You will have a lot of people who say you should have folded pre. They are probably right. I often lag it up and play hands like yours in the CO - but I'm doing it only when there are other factors and I'm always raising it if I play it. You are deep, thats good, but if you are going to be a good lag in spots like this you are not really looking to make a pair and flush draw and this hand is a good example why. When I raise hands like this in the co - most of the time I really dont care what my cards are after the flop as I'm not kidding myself that I'm betting or continuing for value. The only flops that I would be betting this hand for value is something like 2 pair with a straight draw but no flush, or a straight.

    1. Flop bet sizing? Do you think you are betting for value or a bluff? What value hands are you getting called by worse? If another spade comes, will any worse hand ever pay you off? Betting this flop is at best a bad semi bluff, and probably really only a bluff. Classic WAWB. 7 ways I am never bluffing so I am never betting this flop and would fold a lot of the time depending on the game and the players (sounds crazy because you have equity but if you want to be a good lag you need to give up early in WAWB situations )

    2. On the river I would be shocked if you are good more than 10-15% off the time. Key concept here: if I am wrong, you fold, and you see that people are wide open then instead of being sad you folded you should be super happy you are in the best game ever. Folding and being wrong about the fold is a great result. The math is 295/(487+295) (you are not calling to win money still in your stack)

    3. Fold - see point 2 for why.

  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    nariman44 said:
    1- what is your flop bet sizing when it is multiway (here 7 players)? do you still bet 2/3 of the pot? does bet sizing vary when it is heads up or multiway? does it stay 2/3 of the pot regardless of the number of players?

    2-on the river, should I be good 295/(487+295) of time or 295/(487+295+295) of time to justify a call? which one? I am confused, what is my river pot odd?

    3- should hero fold or call? I don't think villain is bluffing in this spot ever. He has seen me betting the flop and turn but still shoves all in on the river.

    Thanks in advance.
    1. Depends. If I've got QQ here and think there are guys on FDs, I'm betting 100-125 (but I might also make it 150, 200 or AI if I'm playing against "gambol, gambols!"). If I'm on a draw and am making a semi-bluff, it's probably about 1/2 pot - 75-80. But it's really silly to ask for a rote answer because it really depends on your Vs and what they might call when they have worse hands. It also depends on other stacks.
    But I will say, 45 into 147 ain't scaring away anybody with a good hand or a good draw. Your turn bet is much better.

    2. you need to call 295 to win 295+487. Since you've got the other 295 in your stack - you don't count that because, hell, it's already in your stack. so it's 295 to win 782 (the actual pot) - so you've got to be good approx 1 out of 2.65 times.

    3. a guy on 2+2 wrote about "kagey's theorem" where if a player takes a check/call, check/call, river bet or shove line - single paired hands aren't often good. But here we've got 2 pair. the Q you've got to ask yourself is: what kind of hands does V shove with? If he's not bluffing then it should be a rivered 2-pair or a slow-played straight or set. Since he should be concerned that we might have the flush, you would think that might slow him down as well. the only hand we beat is 43 and AQ - which I think V would have bet/raised on the flop. Unless there's some home-meta-game going on that I don't know about, this should be an easy fold.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    beauregard said:


    1. Depends. If I've got QQ here and think there are guys on FDs, I'm betting 100-125
    So what would you do with 6 3 (the hand he had)
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    FreeLunch said:
    So what would you do with 6 3 (the hand he had)
    fold pre-flop.
    :wink:

    but let's say it's A 3 and everybody checks to me... prolly 1/2 pot... $75
    but that's against the Vs in my game. I'd have to know more about his Vs to know if this is a good bet or spew.
  • nariman44nariman44 Posts: 96Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    FreeLunch said:
    So what would you do with 6 3 (the hand he had)
    fold pre-flop.
    :wink:

    but let's say it's A 3 and everybody checks to me... prolly 1/2 pot... $75
    but that's against the Vs in my game. I'd have to know more about his Vs to know if this is a good bet or spew.
    He showed 9 4 as backdoor flush!
    he made a stupid call with middle pair and improved on each street.
    all I am trying to ask is I would have had more fold equity if my bet was larger but there were 6 other players in the pot and I can not check this hand back when everybody checks to me so I must bet but how much? 1/3? 1/2? or 2/3?
    you can not take all 6 players into account to determine your bet sizing. it is impossible!
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    If his call with middle pair was stupid then what was your bet with bottom pair. Did you know you were bluffing in a bad spot?

    When everyone is in the pot, the odds are one or more of them are going to have a better hand. You could bet more but honestly, if people have seen you playing like this they are going to call. You had a bad hand in a bad situation, and there really is no great way to play it other than give up.
  • tensor0910 Posts: 123Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    Havent read comments

    For arguments sake I'm not gonna say just fold here, although normally I would.

    Flop- I think I'm likely to check here. People's hands are all over the place here and we have bottom pair and a crappy FD. If the table is as loose as you say then were probably not folding out TPs, Kx and Ax FDs.

    Turn- We have 2p and a FD and no one has shown much strength. I'm definitely betting for value/protection. I only expect to get called by pairs and better FDs. I think sets would have bet into the pot by now.

    River- Once again, betting for value. Only the BD heart draw got there. When V chks flop c/c turn I'm expecting alot of weak Q's in his range, possibly 54, 56, ( I think 57 wouldve raised the turn b/c of the drawiness of the board. ), sometimes 77-88. When he overbet shoves I think this is villain dependent. I could find a fold here but its close. Using generic tendecies I dont see rec. players just open shoving w/ anything that we beat. QT, 9T, and 46 are definitely in his range.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    nariman44 said:
    all I am trying to ask is I would have had more fold equity if my bet was larger but there were 6 other players in the pot and I can not check this hand back when everybody checks to me so I must bet but how much? 1/3? 1/2? or 2/3?
    Dude - there is no magic formula on how much to bet to get the results you want.
    If it were that easy - then everybody would here would be millionaires.
    The real answer is you must bet the minimum that gets the job done - and not a penny more. What that number is depends on your image, how your opponents play, what motivates them, how much money they have behind and how strong their hands are. Since you were there and you play with this group - you should have a much better idea than any of us.

    On the flop - I would want to build a pot with a hand that has a very good chance of winning. Having said that, I would never bet 1/3 pot and expect any pair or draw to fold. On the other hand, I would bet 1/2 pot but I would do so expecting this bet to just thin the field and know I would to at least double barrel. On the turn, I would assume that i'm best - I'd bet anywhere from 3/4 pot to V's whole stack. But that's just me. I play tight, aggressive. And that doesn't guarantee that he folds.
    nariman44 said:
    you can not take all 6 players into account to determine your bet sizing. it is impossible!
    this is what separates the men from the boys.
    only until you can give your opponents a reasonable range and bet your hand accordingly will you be able to "crush live poker"

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