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middle set...what hands to target?

Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 575Subscriber
edited July 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/3/5 NL
UTG +2 (700) - Pretty loose pre and post flop but tighter raising range and plays made hands fast
MP 2 (650) Playing many hands and can be trappy but respects my bets
BTN (1500) Came over to the capped game from broken game with 1500+...seems tight and competent. Has bet folded a few times but also check called with 88 on a 855 flop FH and waited til river to bet. He seems a bit cautious and patient but appears to be a winning player, possibly a pro.
HERO (950) I've run well and shown 2 sets and have a good tight image though I've been in several hands of late.

PREFLOP --UTG +2 Raises to 20, MP 2 calls, BTN calls, Hero calls in BB with 7 7
FLOP (80) J 7 5 HERO checks, UTG +2 checks, MP 2 checks, Villain on BTN bets 35, HERO calls?!, UTG +2 calls, MP 2 calls. (really strange that the preflop raiser and mp 2 overcalled the bet when they had a chance to lead themselves).
TURN (230) 8 HERO bets 130, UTG +2 and MP 2 fold, BTN tanks for 30 seconds and doesn't look happy and calls.
RIVER (490) 9 HERO bets 190, Villain on BTN tanks and folds ....

NOTE: my read was that villain would bet all Jacks and possibly TT/99/88 or better...I didn't think he was the type to bet with T9 but it is possible. I think 98 is likelier as a bet for him due to the double gutter but he may check this hand back a portion of the time.

turns out villain had 55 and I got very unlucky that I
1)didn't lead out or
2)check raise the flop.
3)got a bad turn card and river run out to scare btn
4)board didn't pair

I guess my image was very tight to this player as he said after that he thought I "turned a straight and he thought he needed to fill up"...how can I have a tight image and possibly play 64 pre or T9 for a gutter on flop?

Is this line ok given that villain has a lot more Jacks in his range than monsters on this flop? ...Comments on all streets appreciated.

Comments

  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    unless you have top set or flop a boat - I think you must always bet a set on the flop. esp in a multiway pot. you really want to create action before any scare cards come that will kill future action.

    also - you want to build a pot without looking too nutted... check/raises on the flop looks too strong and can scare away guys with little to no equity in the pot. same holds true for check/calling flop and then leading turn. you want to take a strong line without looking too nutted. nobody believes someone will bet flop with a set. most players trap.

    by taking the lead, you get to name your price for the next card - and in cases where someone has a smaller set or flopped top and bottom, you get to realize a maximum payoff for your set.

    btw: river is a check. any JT has got you by the balls.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Very strange hand. Here is the best take away:
    Drew5hark said:

    I guess my image was very tight to this player as he said after that he thought I "turned a straight and he thought he needed to fill up"...how can I have a tight image and possibly play 64 pre or T9 for a gutter on flop?
    Why are you not bluffing more? You act like its some cardinal sin to play a gutshot, yet you got someone to fold a set to you when you x/c and then led 2 streets. Sounds like your image is super nitty and against opponents like this, you could get away with murder if you wanted to. If you can lead a few streets or x/r a turn and get people to fold strong hands, then that sounds like a pretty awesome way to play some draws.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 575Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    Very strange hand. Here is the best take away:
    Drew5hark said:

    I guess my image was very tight to this player as he said after that he thought I "turned a straight and he thought he needed to fill up"...how can I have a tight image and possibly play 64 pre or T9 for a gutter on flop?
    Why are you not bluffing more? You act like its some cardinal sin to play a gutshot, yet you got someone to fold a set to you when you x/c and then led 2 streets. Sounds like your image is super nitty and against opponents like this, you could get away with murder if you wanted to. If you can lead a few streets or x/r a turn and get people to fold strong hands, then that sounds like a pretty awesome way to play some draws.
    Agreed...new in this game from out of town but definitely something to take away and use more to my advantage.
  • chequearoundcc Posts: 122Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    unless you have top set or flop a boat - I think you must always bet a set on the flop. esp in a multiway pot. you really want to create action before any scare cards come that will kill future action.

    also - you want to build a pot without looking too nutted... check/raises on the flop looks too strong and can scare away guys with little to no equity in the pot. same holds true for check/calling flop and then leading turn. you want to take a strong line without looking too nutted. nobody believes someone will bet flop with a set. most players trap.

    by taking the lead, you get to name your price for the next card - and in cases where someone has a smaller set or flopped top and bottom, you get to realize a maximum payoff for your set.

    btw: river is a check. any JT has got you by the balls.
    This! It almost checked though and that would have been a gigantic waste.

    You got a decent amount of value as played.

    You could have set up more turn a driver value ($100 extra in your stack) by taking initiative and betting the flop.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 575Subscriber
    Given the fact that we know villain had a lower set, it's easy to say we should lead but that is a much small portion of his value range than a jack or worse...I'm trying not to be results oriented as I think a large portion of the time, a different turn card or river card wins me his whole stack. Is there any value to just calling here or is it a big mistake given that villains entire range is more than sets?
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Drew5hark said:
    2/3/5 NL
    UTG +2 (700) - Pretty loose pre and post flop but tighter raising range and plays made hands fast

    Leading is pretty bad vs this type of player. We will pretty much always be able to get a flop x/r in on the flop when he has an overpair. And if he plays hands fast, he will sometimes 3 bet the flop but likely call down if he flats flop.

    Plus, checking and letting this guy Cbet his made hands will trap other players in between and create more dead money. Our relative position is perfect for having a set and letting this guy Cbet and have some callers before we raise.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    You need to raise flop. This lp bet can be rather wide so i would raise to like 80. Then mr bottom set will no doubt back raise or raise turn then you get his whole stack

    Ive been doing this small raise with tight image and it just works wonders
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    DrGambol said:
    Drew5hark said:
    2/3/5 NL
    UTG +2 (700) - Pretty loose pre and post flop but tighter raising range and plays made hands fast

    Leading is pretty bad vs this type of player. We will pretty much always be able to get a flop x/r in on the flop when he has an overpair.
    yeah... can't disagree more.
    against this type of player that plays tight post - it's a bet every day and twice on Sunday because
    A.) he will reraise if he's got something ("plays made hands fast") - so we can create a bigger pot with our set
    B.) he will check back or fold if he's got nothing (so we can bet all our hands including our sets)

    x/c is an amateur move... kind of like min-raising
    it's often seen done - but if you're going to do that, why subscribe to CLP?
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    DrGambol said:
    Drew5hark said:
    2/3/5 NL
    UTG +2 (700) - Pretty loose pre and post flop but tighter raising range and plays made hands fast

    Leading is pretty bad vs this type of player. We will pretty much always be able to get a flop x/r in on the flop when he has an overpair.
    yeah... can't disagree more.
    against this type of player that plays tight post - it's a bet every day and twice on Sunday because
    A.) he will reraise if he's got something ("plays made hands fast") - so we can create a bigger pot with our set
    B.) he will check back or fold if he's got nothing (so we can bet all our hands including our sets)

    x/c is an amateur move... kind of like min-raising
    it's often seen done - but if you're going to do that, why subscribe to CLP?
    So if we bet, he will raise. And if we check, he'll bet/call or bet/3bet value hands. So our EV is pretty close between the two against his value hands against him. The difference is that when we let him bet, others can come along and call or raise. When someone face a bet and a raise in front of them, they're much more likely to fold Jx than if the hero checks and the villain bets.
  • Th3_gman Posts: 69Subscriber
    I agree with Beauregard in the sense that vs this OR utg +2 the better line would be to lead flop. Especially if he fast plays hands. 4 way pot he's probably not cbet bluffing too often so big risk in flop checking around. Only merit to checking this flop is solely for the reason to check raise. With an SPR of over 7 with the original raiser's eff. Stack it's a spot where with middle set you have to start building up the pot. I prefer a lead on flop in this spot almost always.but now that you check and the Original raiser checks and the button which has a $1500 Stack now leads flop it's imperative to check raise in hopes he has a big hand and win a huge pot. I know it's not right to be results oriented but this should serve as a lesson as to why not slow play, tons of value left on the table.
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