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$2/5 KK pre vs Unknowns

AGTJ Posts: 6Subscriber
Do you get KK all-in preflop with $800 effective stacks vs unknowns at the average $2/5 game in America? I realize that in different parts of the country/different casinos the games will play differently, but just answer based on your experience at the casinos you have played at. ie you walk into a game at a casino you've never been at before, and you haven't heard anything about how the game plays there. How do you play KK in the following scenarios?

A) Hero raises in the cutoff to $20, BTN 3bets to $60. Hero?

B) The HighJack raises 2 limpers to $30, and Hero makes it $100 from the BB. Highjack 4bets to $275. Hero?

C) CO limps behind an early limper, hero makes it $25 from the BB, limpers fold, CO 3bets to $80, what does hero do as a standard? Say hero 4bets to $200 and villain shoves for $600 more to call?

D) UTG+1 limps, Hero makes it $25 from the highjack, small blind calls, maniac degen-type guy makes it $100 from the BB, and UTG+1 ships so $775 to call?

E) Any other informative spots you can think of. . .

Comments

  • AGTJ Posts: 6Subscriber
    AGTJ said:


    C) CO limps behind an early limper, hero makes it $25 from the BB, limpers fold, CO 3bets to $80, what does hero do as a standard? Say hero 4bets to $200 and villain shoves for $600 more to call?

    What about if the hand starts with $600 effective stacks? $500 effective stacks?

  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    All these are very player dependent.
    A) I think is a 4 bet to $160-200 depends on stacks if we call a 5 bet.

    B) depends on stacks but we can possibly set mine. In this spot with KK I would flat and try and get a read off the player. We look super strong here so I can't see Q's ever re raising. If we are short stacked its tough. Possibly fold depends on read on player

    C) with no reads it is such a weird play to limp Aces in the CO after a limp. $500 or $600 effective it doesn't matter I'm getting it in pre if he shoves my 4bet.

    D) When players limp UTG it is rarely Q's. Mostly aces. You can fold KK here against most likely AA

    All these spots and my answers are purely based of positions, ranges and actions.

  • AGTJ Posts: 6Subscriber
    Floyd said:
    All these are very player dependent.
    A) I think is a 4 bet to $160-200 depends on stacks if we call a 5 bet.

    B) depends on stacks but we can possibly set mine. In this spot with KK I would flat and try and get a read off the player. We look super strong here so I can't see Q's ever re raising. If we are short stacked its tough. Possibly fold depends on read on player

    C) with no reads it is such a weird play to limp Aces in the CO after a limp. $500 or $600 effective it doesn't matter I'm getting it in pre if he shoves my 4bet.

    D) When players limp UTG it is rarely Q's. Mostly aces. You can fold KK here against most likely AA

    All these spots and my answers are purely based of positions, ranges and actions.

    I entirely realize things change a lot once you have reads (ie it's player-dependent). I just wanted to get some opinions on what people's default play would be with no information. I also realize you never actually have "zero" information as even the player's age, race, and other physical qualities can be considered. But yeah, basically just assuming the opponent is an average looking 30-some year old white guy, you never played in the game/casino before, and have heard nothing about how it plays.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    100% and all those situations with no information is how I would play each one of those
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    A. I 4bet KK sometimes if I can get value from worse by fastplaying. Sometimes, I will flat call as a slowplay against certain Villains. When I flat call KK as a slowplay in this spot, I am usually playing for stacks postflop on J-high or lower flops.

    B. Generally, I 5bet shove KK in this late position war spot, but I could hero fold if I were against a scared money passive or a nit...assuming that I had a tight dynamic with that Villain.

    C. Same answer as A.

    D. Very (UTG+1) Villain dependent. It really comes down to how much UTG+1 is adjusting to the maniac. Some guys don't adjust much at all. So an ABC nit who isn't adjusting much probably still has a super-strong range for limp/cold 4betting. On the other hand, many savvy tight players (not even LAGs) will have a wider range than KK+ if they are adjusting a lot to the maniac. The UTG+1 shoving cold 4bet shoving $775 is also sometimes/often weaker than UTG+1 cold 4betting to $200-$300. Again, this is Villain dependent because certain scared money players could shove limp/4bet shove AA if they are scared of a bad beat.
  • nariman44nariman44 Posts: 96Subscriber
    Here is a rule of thumb, but let's assume unless proven otherwise, villain is not a maniac:

    A) we are facing a 3bet to $60. I would 4bet to $180, if villain smooth calls, I would play for stacks on non Ace high flops. (be careful of Q high flops, you may be against a set of Q).
    If villain 5bets small but not all-in then he has AA.
    If villain 5bets all-in it could be AA, an overplayed QQ or AK suited. I did the math, if I get pot odds of: x/(pot+2x)=0.35 and x is the amount to call then I will call. otherwise I fold.

    B) you have 3bet on BB. usually 3bet on BB (out of position) gets more respect compared to the button 3bet. but now villain 4bets you (does he think you may be squeezing?).
    This is the golden question: do you see him doing this with QQ?. here as David Chan said it is player dependent. I know you have no read but you can profile him by the way he looks. are you going to shove if he was an old man? what if he is an Asian kid?!

    C) people tend to limp with AA when they are first or second to enter the pot. they panic and raise if they see many limpers in the pot. but if they are the first limper or second limper they may still trap with AA. in this example although CO is a late position limper but he is the second limper here so he could have AA. so again you are facing a 5bet shove, if I am getting the pot odds of:
    x/(pot+2x)=0.35 and x is the amount to call then I will call. otherwise I fold.

    D) fold!
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