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What's your play on the flop and turn

Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
edited July 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/4 1K effective

V1 is a LAG. Have played with him on a 1/2/5 PLO before and also seen him play higher in a 5/10 NLH no capped game. V1 has played throughout the whole night.

Hero arrived at 8am in the morning. It is now 9am. Hero has won a couple pots and is winning

V2 has also been playing all night. Looks tired and got into a big pot 20 mins earlier and took it down. He showed his TPWK that he turned into a bluff on the turn and shoved the river on a 4 to the straight board.

V1 opens to $25 from MP2
Hero calls in HJ with A 7
V2 in the BB also calls.
3 to the flop

Flop A J 8 (70)

V1 & V2 both check
Hero checks back aswell
Should this definitely be a bet? So many draws out there looking back I think this is a clear bet. What do you all think?

Turn 2 (70)

V2 bets $35, V1 flats. A J 8 2 (132)

Hero?

Comments

  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    IMHO this is a fold preflop. The only way this hand is worth a $25 preflop investment is if you can overflush someone. I don't think there are enough players in the hand for that to be likely.
    A5s or lower, ATs or higher you can make straights with so they have a little more value, but a hand like this usually puts you in the position you're in here.
    TPWK and don't know whether to check, bet, raise or fold.

    Since we're here, the flop is a bet/fold when checked to.

    Here on the turn you're getting 4 to 1 so I would call and evaluate river because someone could easily be betting a J or Broadway or flush draw. I would call a reasonable bet on a non-broadway non river, but a big bet or bet and raise and I'm mucking.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    We are 250BB deep. Folding any suited ace pre seems really nitty to me.

    What does everyone think about raising the turn? We can represent sets and two pairs and get better to fold. Say if V2 has a hand like AT A9 he may very well fold AQ aswell.

  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    Floyd said:
    We are 250BB deep. Folding any suited ace pre seems really nitty to me.

    What does everyone think about raising the turn? We can represent sets and two pairs and get better to fold. Say if V2 has a hand like AT A9 he may very well fold AQ aswell.

    You could be 1000BB deep and it wouldnt change the reasons for playing the hand. Axs gets its value from being able to make a nut flush. The problem with flushes is that when they come in theyre obvious to even the fishiest of fish, so the only hands likely to call big bets or play for stacks after the flush comes in are other flushes, so for us to have a chance to get a payoff on our preflop investment we really need some field callers who are likely to be playing suited connector type hands.
    by 1Floyd
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    A7s can win without hitting the nut flush. We could hit top pair, have no action on the flop, and be able to showdown (hint: don't fold the turn and call most rivers)

    I feel like I say this in every thread but I guess I'll repeat this again. There's more to worry about in poker than implied odds. Everything is opponent dependent and we can win the pot in a lot of situations by just sniffing out weakness and playing our hand in a way that maximizes its value against their ranges. If you think that some lag that plays 2/4 is going to run you over, then by all means, wait for aces and see if he's going to just hand you and your nitty image a stack. But I'd prefer getting reads, pouncing on his weaknesses, and playing poker.
    by 1Floyd
  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    @DrGambol

    I never said it couldnt win without a nut flush, but it wont win enough to justify calling significant preflop raises without hitting a flush or 2p.

    In a raised pot its very likely that youre dominated with a hand like this.

    I realize you feel you have some superhuman ability to soul real all of your opponents and can therefore find a reason to disagree with the line that most of us would take in pretty much every thread you post in, but since most of us werent born with your special powers we prefer not to give advice like "raise J8o out of the BB because you can smell weakness and steal the pot from them later". Most of us prefer strategies that will work for most players in most low stakes live games.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Its 5BB to call pre and we all have 250BB.
    Do you honestly just fold? I thought it was an easy call.
    Yes we can be dominated, but my question was about turning our hand into a bluff instead of calling the turn to get better Ax hands to fold.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    I hear what you are saying about the field callers, but I also think with positiin and these stack sizes we can see a flop
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Floyd said:
    Its 5BB to call pre and we all have 250BB.
    Do you honestly just fold? I thought it was an easy call.
    Yes we can be dominated, but my question was about turning our hand into a bluff instead of calling the turn to get better Ax hands to fold.
    I don't see you being able to rep much if you flat pre, check back flop and raise turn. You essentially rep only A2s and 22.

    I also think that there are way more combos of hands you beat than what beat you, even when we are 3 ways. It's hard for the pfr to have you beat when he doesn't Cbet. When he checks flop and calls turn, I'd put a lot of KK/QQ and Jx in his range and some weak Axs. The BB could be betting any number of draws, Ax, Jx, and maybe 8x.

    I'd feel very good flatting and re-evaluating the river.
    by 1Floyd
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    So really it's not a great bet as my hand does have decent value at this point and only better is going to call?
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    Bandgeek said:
    @DrGambol

    I never said it couldnt win without a nut flush, but it wont win enough to justify calling significant preflop raises without hitting a flush or 2p.

    In a raised pot its very likely that youre dominated with a hand like this.

    I realize you feel you have some superhuman ability to soul real all of your opponents and can therefore find a reason to disagree with the line that most of us would take in pretty much every thread you post in, but since most of us werent born with your special powers we prefer not to give advice like "raise J8o out of the BB because you can smell weakness and steal the pot from them later". Most of us prefer strategies that will work for most players in most low stakes live games.
    I think you're really undervaluing your positional advantage and all the different ways you can win the pot.

    You can win if you hit an ace and he doesn't have one. You can win if you hit a 7 and he doesn't have a higher pair. You can win with ace high. You can hit a flush. You can hit two pair. You can hit trips.

    Or you can win without a showdown when he checks the flop and gives up. Or when he cbets 100% of flops and either folds to flop raises too much or x/f the turn too much. Or we can profitably semi bluff flush draws. Or we can get a read based on his bet sizing that makes his hand turn face up. Or he x/c the flop but constructs his ranges so that he only had weak hands in this range and we can barrel (this is super common way people play). Or we can get a live tell.

    I'm not claiming to be a poker god. What I'm saying is that there's a lot of profitable situations out there that are a result of most people playing super exploitable styles. And most people aren't taking advantages of these mistakes. You don't have to soul read people because they will make it really obvious as to how strong they are.

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,004Subscriber
    Preflop is really close. Typically, this early in a session, I'm probably just folding it. But if I have a good image and/or a solid read on villain tendencies I could call or raise it. Really depends on a lot of factors. In this exact situation, though, I probably fold it.

    On the flop, it is a very easy bet and fold to a raise. V1 should be betting this flop with an ace or flush draw, so he likely either has a monster (AA/JJ) or absolutely nothing. V2 then is the only one you need to worry about.

    Once you've checked the turn, you shouldn't have too many Ax hands in your range, as you would have bet the flop with them. V2 can bet some of his Jx hands for value. V1 still likely doesn't likely have Ax, so you're almost certainly ahead. Call the turn and plan on calling a river bet (depending on river card/action).
    by 1Floyd
  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    DrGambol said:


    I think you're really undervaluing your positional advantage and all the different ways you can win the pot.

    You can win if you hit an ace and he doesn't have one. You can win if you hit a 7 and he doesn't have a higher pair. You can win with ace high. You can hit a flush. You can hit two pair. You can hit trips.

    Or you can win without a showdown when he checks the flop and gives up. Or when he cbets 100% of flops and either folds to flop raises too much or x/f the turn too much. Or we can profitably semi bluff flush draws. Or we can get a read based on his bet sizing that makes his hand turn face up. Or he x/c the flop but constructs his ranges so that he only had weak hands in this range and we can barrel (this is super common way people play). Or we can get a live tell.

    The things you are describing are true of pretty mch any two cards in the deck. If your strategy in the hand is to use position to take the pot away after V gives up, your hand strength doesnt really matter.

    The way this hand went down is a perfect illustration of why I think its a big leak to play this hand in a raised short-handed pot. Hero flops top pair, in position, is checked to by the preflop raiser, and checks it back, on a semi coordinated two flush board, because he has no idea if his top pair is good.

    Then a weakish bet and call in front of him on a brick turn, and hes still not sure what to do. Do I flat? do I raise?

    This is why I think the preflop call is a mistake. Most heroes lose more chips on A high and 7 high flops with this hand than they win when they flop a monster, so the hand is -ev in this situation.
    Most of the lines you referred to dont depend on hero having a strong hand, only position and awareness, but based solely on hand strength and number of villains, this is a fold preflop.

    by 1Floyd
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Thanks for all the comments guys. You all make good points. I agree on hand strength this hand is a fold pre.
    I miss played this hand this hand post flop. I should be betting flop once checked to on this board 100% of the time.
    On the turn it went bet $35, call and I raised to $135. My thoughts were I could fold out better Ax that aren't two pair and charge more for any draws out there
  • StarwarsJediMasterStarwarsJediMaster Posts: 741Subscriber
    3 bet pre some of the time
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    Preflop - This is a fold OOP against a LAG, but a call IP for me. Otherwise, we will let a LAG run over us preflop. A case can be made for a 3bet. I agree with DrGambol, we need to be able to use our positional advantage to play poker, and this hand has enough standalone value to help. You also need to recognize with top pair is no good. A newbie should not play this hand, but a seasoned winning player should IMO.

    Flop - I'd always bet here - you can get value from FDs, Jx, T9, QT, KK, QQ, and possibly broadways.

    Turn - V1 should almost never have an A or strong hand with his line on this board. V2 could be responding to the flop action, and leading with a wider range of TP+, Jx, and draws. He has shown he can bluff. So, I think at least a call is needed. I don't mind your raise here either as a combo raise - get better Ax to fold, but get draws to call.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    After reading just the original post, my first thought was to raise turn after $35 / call ahead of you. We can get value from draws and potentially get slightly better hands like A9 / AT to fold.

    Pre : I do like calling in position , but folding in early position.
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