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The tighter you are perceived the bigger your PF Raise should be?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
I am in new jersey this week for work. decided to open up a wsop.com account. was getting killed early on by raising small and trying to thin value bet.. why? because they were trapping me with sets when I have top pair or two pairs but folding pretty much everything else..

so I decided to try making pot size raises pre with value hands like big aces big pairs pairs in position and limp everything else.. wow.. I got called pre but almost the same fold equity post flop.. except when someone hit top pair.. then they went broke..

so I was thinking.. Since my image is uber tight and I feel I dont get as much value why not make much much bigger raises pre.. so if its harder for me to get more than say 1 or two streets of value maybe I can get 1 or two bigger streets instead.. so play kinda funky bet sizes..

So lets say for shits and giggles I have AQ on the button and its limped 3 ways..instead of raising my standard 4x plus ever player why not make it like 6x plus every player??? I still think I can get called by worse and sometimes better will fold and the side benefit is now I have built a much bigger pot.. So on the flop or turn I can size my bets to mess with people.. the pots bigger so I think I can have more leeway to try things that other looser players cannot

like what the guy in vegas did against me.. the bet with set on wet board then check raise turn. I think for many players in LA will have the same reaction I did with that play.. Where If I bet the flop and turn someone with say top pair might fold..

just a thought and really want to try this when I get back home.. I have to be playing deep though.. have to have enough chips to bet fold

Comments

  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    There was an interesting discussion on another board about the same thing, not as it relates to image but just that in a live game you can pump up your preflop raises and ppl will adjust and still call.
    I.e. If the standard open for the table is 20, just make it 30 every time. You might make everyone fold the first time or two, but after that they're like "this guy always makes it 30, I'm playing my J4s".

    The funny thing is the rest of the table still raises the amt they were before, so you get to see flops for cheaper, but you can charge them more and they'll still come along.

    I was planning to try this at my next session.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,989SubscriberProfessional
    I've been fiddling around with PF open sizing lately too, but in a different way. If I am at a weak table, full of players that aren't paying attention to details like raise sizing, I'm jacking up my big hands to 5x or 6x, and my more speculative, slightly lighter late position opens to just 3x. They're calling with the same relative range, so I've got them putting in twice the money preflop when I have my big hands.

    On the flipside, at tables where I'm against competent villains who aren't going to fall for such shenanigans, I'm consistent in my sizing with both monsters and speculative hands, usually either 3x or 4x. I still have the advantage over them postflop (I believe), and the true strength of my hand is a bit hidden.

    As a general rule, I have a pretty tight image too. But I'm finding my raise size varies more on my opponents' skill levels and images more than mine.

    Interesting discussion, Wendy!
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    You should bet the maximum amount people are going to call with worse, but a better adjustment would be working more bluffs into your game. If people are giving you too much respect as the preflop raiser, just open more pots pre and barrel them off post.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    Best to do this only once in a while as open size is the easiest thing in the world and even clueless players will figure out what is going on when the tight player opens big. After you show down a hand or two that you ovebet pre, consider flipping your bet sizing around.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    So had a couple of hours to kill before a marketing event today in san diego. Went to palomar and played their 2/3

    Bought in for 300 and played the overbet style and actually had a lot of fun with it. Was even able to play stack the donkey on one hand. Should have done it with another

    Funny. Ppl play way more straightforward the bigger your bets are.
  • FuzzyDunlop Posts: 139Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    This thread got me experimenting a bit last night.

    Three times post flop my sizing was close to pot sized bets against three different opponents. The first time was for value and it made it easier for me to get stacks in. The second time was for value and my opponent perceived it as weakness and overplayed his his weak draw (unfortunately he did hit his draw after stacks were in). The third time was as a bluff deep stacked where I triple barreled huge knowing my opponent was weak - he called me all the way down but couldn't beat my weak paired 5 and I won a huge pot to the amazement of the table (this hand reinforced never to muck a pair when you're bluffing).

    All three players I have a LOT of history with. If someone else was betting big at them like that they'd be getting out of the way (which backs up what Wendy said about people playing straight forward) but with me they took it as me trying to blow them out of the hand with air.

    It ties in with what David talked about on recent podcasts in terms of taking people out of their comfort zones too. Really interesting.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Fuzzy

    Do you have a normal tight image perceived by your reg player pool? That was my initial thought process. ie some players calling ranges are inelastic. but others are elastic. the inelastic calling range players are going to be by definition way way looser and you have a stronger much stronger range.

    Ill give an example.

    Las saturday I played at Hustler 5/5 .. guy calls my 25 iso over his limp. my hand doesnt matter.. he has 23..

    Flop A 2 9.. he checks I bet 40 into 50 he calls.

    Turn 8.. just a pretty bad texture for me to double barrel.. he checks i check.. river brick he checks I check and he wins the pot.

    NOW had I raised to say 35 or 45 over a limp then now he has to call 70 or 80 on the flop.. now that bet might be too much for him to peel with bottom pair.

    I also played this style for a few hours down in san diego at a 2/3 game where you would think it wouldnt work considering how many calling stations. I played for only 2 hours and made over 300.. now I could have been running better but I do think since soooo many players want to see flops that if they dont adjust to my raise size then I should absolutely be betting way bigger.. bigger for my entire range..

    I finally will have the chance to try today. I have had the busiest work week in a couple of years so havent been able to really play much at all this week.

    ww
  • FuzzyDunlop Posts: 139Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Fuzzy

    Do you have a normal tight image perceived by your reg player pool?
    I'm in what I assume is a pretty unique situation. I'm the only pro in a small pool of recreational players. I do play TAG and everyone knows I'm the best player but their perceptions of me would differ. The players that I did target with this larger sizing are all players who are thinking players that enjoy the ego boost of beating me or catching me on a bluff. So it's a totally different scenario to you playing while traveling against unknowns.

    With your Hustler hand, I'm guessing that the 23 was suited but there's a much bigger chance he's folding pre with a raise to 35 or 40. But if he did call, you're right - there's less chance of him calling the flop but I think with that player type it's really value hands you want to target. Stack sizes matter a lot in this type of situation.

    But I would think most importantly it's the player. If you're playing against unknowns, then I'm assuming you'll be targeting loose passive players for value and tight passive players and thinking players for bluffs. It simply comes down to what does the player think my big sizing means, and then use it in the opposite manner.

    If you are using it for your entire range though then I'd think it best to only really do this when traveling. While you may gain an advantage by taking players out of their comfort zones, you're also reducing the post flop SPR which can impact on postflop playability depending on stack sizes.

    I'll be interested to hear where this path leads you.

    Cheers.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Thehammah said:

    Last saturday I played at Hustler 5/5 .. guy calls my 25 iso over his limp. my hand doesnt matter.. he has 23..

    Flop A 2 9.. he checks I bet 40 into 50 he calls.

    Turn 8.. just a pretty bad texture for me to double barrel.. he checks i check.. river brick he checks I check and he wins the pot.
    LOL, ww.
    How is the 8 bad for a double barrel?
    If you've got AK, you're taking 23 to value town. Right?

    raising more may win more pots outright.
    but raising a more "standard" size will win you bigger pots (if you correctly barrel)

    If you're gonna iso raise, you need to barrel because you're rarely going to hit the board.
    And if you're afraid that 23 is calling you down with a hand that's better than yours, don't iso-raise! :wink:
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber

    LOL, ww.
    How is the 8 bad for a double barrel?
    If you've got AK, you're taking 23 to value town. Right?

    raising more may win more pots outright.
    but raising a more "standard" size will win you bigger pots (if you correctly barrel)

    If you're gonna iso raise, you need to barrel because you're rarely going to hit the board.
    And if you're afraid that 23 is calling you down with a hand that's better than yours, don't iso-raise! :wink:
    8 is bad for double barrel, because V most likely holdings are A, 9x or PP
    8 doesn't hit our range at all, and is not scary for a 9x (98 makes 2p)
    Ace obv not folding either.
    If you want to keep repping A that's fine, but it's villain dependant.
    I gonna guess here that this particular V calling with 23 is a "non believer" type :)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    8 really bad double barrel card for sure..

    I played my go big or go home strategy and really works well in looser more calling stationy games.. In the tighter game flow all it did was get me a lot of preflop folds..

    I also like the comments that Fuzzy described and its really good! I have always done really well when not at home not during the wsop. I think partly because they dont kow about me and partly I make general assumptions and not play too fps..

    at times the game I played in last night at hustler was so horrible and at times was really juicy. I also thinks there might be strategies different during the "tight bad game" periods (ie more trappy) and more aggro during the loose calling station times.. basically a push or pull strategy..

    push more in looser calling games or pull in more tighter games..

    ww
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    Clock said:
    8 is bad for double barrel, because V most likely holdings are A, 9x or PP
    8 doesn't hit our range at all, and is not scary for a 9x (98 makes 2p)
    Ace obv not folding either.
    If you want to keep repping A that's fine, but it's villain dependant.
    I gonna guess here that this particular V calling with 23 is a "non believer" type :)
    LOL, clock
    I realize you're one of the officiers in the Hammah Fan Club - but your post it quite funny.
    On an Ace-high board - what card in the world would ever bet a good double barrel card?
    a K?
    a 5?
    a T?
    another A?
    think about it: what card that could possibly come up would help us pull off a bluff here?

    the answer is none.

    If V has an Ace - then, we're playing like a stupid, spew monkey to iso the guy that limps with an Ace when we've got jack-crap.

    But lemme ask you this - if we're a good player, shouldn't we have a read on this guy before we iso him? And if we have a read on this guy, shouldn't we feel confident that he doesn't have an Ace when he calls a pfr, calls a c-bet and checks to river? (or he's got a super weak Ace?)

    If Hammah is repping a big Ace (which her iso raise is supposed to do) - then she needs to man-up and bet like she's got it.

    the whole concept of betting "scare" cards is represent the next card as something we have in our hand that beats the current board. But when the board is Ace-high - there will NEVER be a card that will come that will be a scare card!!!! Never!

    here, Hammah should have a plan that goes beyond pre-flop. A delayed c-bet is much better than the standard c-bet. And if V bets the turn, a raise on the turn would have the impact we want.

    But IF we decide to c-bet AND if v calls AND he, then, checks two streets - any Bart video on hand-reading will tell you that V does NOT have an Ace! So we should fire off on the river.

    For someone (ww) who complains a ton for not getting value with big hands, and then wonders why she can't win this hand... I don't understand why we're checking turn and river. Do we expect V just to muck his hand by us giving him a dirty look? Isn't this a game of betting/raising?

    You can justify ww's actions all you want. I think this is sub-par Hammah performance. (Probably her C- or D-game... because Hammah on her A-game would agree this was poorly played.)

    I think this is the perfect example of somebody clicking buttons and not having a plan for the hand. Making larger pfr ain't the answer. Playing poker is.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Beau

    The 8 hits his range way more than mine. More importantly it doesnt put out a higher card that might make him more inclined to fold say bottom pair. Ie its a blank. If the turn is say a ten or above now i have more of a chance to rep a better hand because players think i have mainly broadway cards

    If the board was say a 6 9 or a 5 9 then that turn card is even worse because now villain can easily have a pair amd a straight draw and im never getting him to fold that on the turn either.

    Of course had I known how loose villain was I would have double barreled. And had i known he was a calling station i would have stuck with a tighter pre flop range and bet as big as I thought he would call.

    All of that was unknown to me at the time. I was thinking of ways to use my image to exploit others and maybe not against him but against other players they are more likely to fold for a bet of say 40 instead of 20 or 30

    Ww
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,097Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    I realize you're one of the officiers in the Hammah Fan Club - but your post it quite funny.
    Well the joke is on you then :lol:

    No need for long winded essay.
    It's pretty obvious that it's not a great double barrel board anyway
    Nobody said it was....expect...YOU did
    beauregard said:
    If you're gonna iso raise, you need to barrel because you're rarely going to hit the board.
    LOL

    But if you're gonna compare which cards are better (not great, but better) double barrel cards, comparatively speaking, it's obviously a K and maybe a Q because they are OC to 9 (which obv V can have) and do hit our pre-flop raising range.
    That makes 8 a bad double barrel card.

    Keep on laughing...
  • Bandgeek Posts: 140Subscriber
    I oddly find myself agreeing with beau again. That's twice in one week!

    In this situation there really isn't a bad barrel card except maybe the 9 or 2 pairing. If we're representing AK here, the turn card isn't going to change anything, we need to keep firing away because if we had AK the 8 wouldn't slow us down would it?
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