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3 bet bluff sizing?

Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
2/4 effective stacks of $400

The rest of the table is deep like 300 BB deep. Have been playing for 30 mins and this spot came up.

V1 raise to $20 UTG, V2 MP1 calls and so does V3 OTB. SB folds. Hero is in the BB with A5o.
What are your thoughts on 3 betting in this spot?and what would your sizing be?

As I said all Villans are deep and are all very active. Definitely V1 in UTG. They have all played throughout the night and it is now 9am. Hero image is tight.


  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I'd 3 bet A5o if people are folding too much to 3 bets preflop. Otherwise, this is a pretty terrible hand to 3 bet bluff with. We have pretty terrible playability deep and OOP with an offsuit weak ace. I'd prefer to 3 bet hands like A2s, 64s, Q8s that can make big hands that we can play for stacks if we hit our hand but play poorly as calls preflop.

    Sizing wise, it depends what my goal is. I'd make it larger if I want immediate fold equity. If I'm bluffing A2s thinking I can barrel them off of their weak ranges, then I'd 3 bet a normal amount. I typically 3 bet between 3x-4x. As a squeeze, I typically raise 3-4x plus 1x per caller.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Yeah I was thinking of squeezing and expecting to take it down pre.
    Why would you prefer to 3 bet with 64s and Q8s over A5o?
    My thoughts are atleast we have a blocker with A5o
    With the 64s and Q8s you said you can flop big and play for stacks. I would've thought those hands would be better off squeezing instead of 3 betting for Value? Why not just call and see a flop?
    Raising OOP wanting to get called with hands that are easily dominated isn't making a lot of sense to me.

    My intentions was to 3 bet squeeze and take it down pre
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    A5o has a blocker to AA and Ak, but that's only relevant if that is the majority of their continuing range. So if they're calling a 3 bet or 4 betting with 77-AA, AK-AJ, KQ, suited broadways, and good suited connectors, then A5o is blocking such a low % of their continuing range. I would rather use A5's blocker potential in a 4 bet pot where people's ranges are much narrower (like AK/QQ+).

    Q8s/64s play better in a 3 bet pot than A5o because if called, we can bluff easier with more backdoor flush/straight potential. And when I mentioned the ability to win big pots, just think about how many boards A5o can win on vs something like 64s. A5o can hit trip 5's, A5X, or a straight. 64s can hit trip 6's, trip 4's, 64X, straights and flushes. A5 could hit trip aces, but it likely scares the other player and has bad reverse implied odds.

    When I say there's some value with 64s, what I mean is that it is effectively a value bet against certain opponents who call a lot pre and fold a lot of flops. For instance, a guy that set mines and folds when he misses will call and fold nearly every flop.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    edited July 2015
    Thanks for that. Makes a lot more sense now

    the way the hand actually played out
    Hero 3 bet to $85
    ( looking back on what I wanted to achieve which is take it down pre it wasn't nearly enough)

    All 3 players call.
    flop 6 5 2 (340)
    Hero has $325 left what do you think of shoving here?
    This flop pretty much hits no one. My main concern is someone calling off with like 77 88 99 TT
    But considering my image is tight I doubt anyone would.
  • DrGambol Posts: 724Subscriber
    I think you'll get called pretty often. You have to win the parlay of them all being willing to fold. i think you'd need a pretty strong read to be willing to bluff off here against ALL of them.
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    What can they call with though? After V1 called seems like they all called as the pot odds just got bigger and bigger.
    None of this changes the fact hero can still have QQ+
  • High__Rolla Posts: 775Subscriber
    Floyd said:

    As I said all Villans are deep and are all very active. Definitely V1 in UTG. They have all played throughout the night and it is now 9am. Hero image is tight.
    This makes for a bad spot to light 3bet IMO with your hand. I much prefer to 3bet a suited hand because you can barrel more posts flop, but probably wouldn't 3bet A5s either. This play depends on taking it down preflop often to make it profitable and I don't think that will happen enough versus this described lineup.

    I would rather 3bet a weaker value hand like TT here than A5 if I was going to.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    If you've only been playing for 30 minutes at the table, then I hate the squeeze there. I'm not sure 30 minutes is enough time to gather what kinds of players you are playing against, and it's not enough time to establish your proper image to make that play, especially only 100 BB deep. I'd only be raising the very top of my value range in that spot.

    As played, I think you need to check/evaluate that board. Chances are one of your opponents has a pair, and I don't think they're folding. You're only beating 33/44. Again, you're just not deep enough for this line.
  • BenC Posts: 4Subscriber
    Your 3! Sizing needs to be larger here for bluffs like 105 at min.. Unfort this puts you very close into stack commitment territory... Also you prob want to consider bluffing mp-lp opens as they are usually wider than ep raising ranges.. And you need to consider how tight / have a read on the opener and the first callers range before you consider making a move... I dont hate the hand choice a5o is a good candidate for this play but i think you didnt regard the positions and stack sizes or your own sizing so it seems a little optimistic. Gl
  • Floyd Posts: 160Subscriber
    Thanks for the comments guys. Obviously I wasn't playing my hand for value. I should've made my 3 bet larger if I'm ever making that play. I wasn't planning on shoving flop but once it came 6 high it seemed like a good spot to continue my bluff. They all folded to the last player and he was like I've got a 6 and then said who am I kidding your range is QQ+ and he folded.

    So going over this whole situation,
    I should get more info on players and build my image more. Have a deeper stack and more suited hands than off suit in the future

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