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2/5 would you fold KK?

TaintBDTaintBD Posts: 244Subscriber
2/5 I'm effective stack of $600
I've been really active and table has noticed and trying to 'get me' by calling wide
Young player with huge stack opens 15 UTG1
Don't know him
Loose guy calls
I make it 60 with black KK
two calls
180 to flop
Ac7c4d
I check believing that at least one villain called me with an Ace
Young gun makes it 85
Loose guy folds
Do you fold???
Spoiler:
[/I folded]

Comments

  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    Nobody is out to get you by calling-bet until they raise you. Calling wider isnt a plan to get you, keep VB. If you lose a hand do it agian until you see a real adjustment.

    Yes I would say the UTG has more AX than draws or bluffs leading into 2.

    If you think they are calling to get you then what does he have that bets into you?
    Im still folding someone else is allowed to make a hand too. Yea its sucks if you have
    a crazy image and cant get a big pot with KK but what you doing with less is working
    fine-so keep grinding
  • marseille Posts: 400Subscriber
    Fold- he bet called ep, bet with player behind on flop, only a few club combos in reasonable range. Usually people aren't out to get you at 2/5.


  • SKOOSKOO Posts: 160Subscriber
    So if I read this right, it seems like you're OOP

    In that case, I like a bet fold more than a check fold. You really give someone a green light when you check on a board like that. He can easily have 99-QQ and some club/x hands and is betting small since you showed weakness.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    I might float but I agree it's pretty easy for him to have an A here. If I float I'm mainly looking to bluff a club turn but it depends. Agreed you should just bet fold as you look weak checking the flop. It may feel like burning money but it's too easy to open yourself to folding the best hand checking to A flops.
    by 1TaintBD
  • SKOOSKOO Posts: 160Subscriber
    Plus, an UTG+1 range to only $15 with a huge stack? I would narrow his range down a little bit more to PP and connectors rather than TOP of range.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Hard to say. $15 open early is fine. Could still be AK. Obviously not AA but could be JJ and you open yourself up to bluff when u check A flop.
  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    Dont automaticaaly discount hands from range he still raise EP tehn leads 1/2 pot to other V. dont take hands out, wider it if any hting then adjsut.betting turns KK in to bluff, if btn had bet different story. take one off and eval trn then if you think V turn hand in to bluff
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,309Pro
    If you were the villain and had something like 99 here, what would you do on that board?

    Checking folding to a decent player is really bad. They (and you) should bet a lot of hands here. If they are really agro I would even consider check raising against some, but a lead is a lot better against most.

    by 1Floyd
  • FoldtoMyRaiseFoldtoMyRaise Posts: 312Subscriber
    What is your opponents 3 bet calling range OOP when opening in EP?

    Maybe your opponent (Young gun) thinks you are 3 betting light here so in his mind you could have a wider than usual range as the 3 better. Maybe he is calling you a little bit lighter than usual and his range may be wider?

    What is your position?
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,112Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    I'm def gonna x/call at least one street to a young guy and see what happens next.
    Player/dynamic dependent, but I might x/call turn also and make him fire river if he has the balls.

    Young guy can def interpret your check as you're scared of the Ace and try to represent it.
    When you x/c two streets, he will prob figure you're just NOT folding, so he may check river behind (especially if he has some SD value hand like TT) unless he REALLY does have it.

    If he checks turn, I may bet river myself for value especially if clubs and other draws brick out.
    A lot of players will level themselves into calling with some mid PP cause WTH are you betting right? :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    If you really feel that players are after you why make such a small raise?? I would have made it $80...let them think that you are just trying to push them around..

    I would have checked behind too. not because the initial raiser is necessarily ace heavy but either of them could have a weak ace and I really dont need to protect my equity anymore AND I am now not likely to get three streets of value with that scare card..

    Against the player yet to act I would really want to get an idea of his range? Is he calling your 60 bet with suited connectors? only Ax hands .. any pairs??? I am in most situations against your avg player going to call this flop. Just because he bet doesnt mean he always has an ace. the wider his range the more comfy I am in calling.

    Also his sizing is on the small side. only 85 into 180??? if he really had an ace is he only going to be less than half pot???

    ok now for the spoiler to see what happened...

    YUK!! this guy would have to be a complete nit for me to just fold there.. Alot of times against standard players you calling there is going to scare them. Remember even if they have an ace its not always going to be an ace with say a K or a Q kicker.. any other kicker and now they might be afraid you have them beat. So alot of times you can get to showdown.

    So if you called and the turn went check check quickly. I mean he insta checked.. then if no flush card comes in .. I am likely to make a very small value bet. To get called by pairs under KK..

    ww
    by 1Clock
  • izgrinder33izgrinder33 Posts: 3Subscriber
    why don't you bet fold??
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    izgrinder33 said:
    why don't you bet fold??
    I like this less than check calling. When you reraise pre you are repping a hand that can easily be an ace. When an ace falls many players will simply fold to your cbet with hands much worse than KK but only call with an ace or better.. the exact opposite of what you want. getting all worse cards to fold and only better ones to call.. not good.

    checking then betting later in the hand is something most rec players havent seen and would never do themselves.. so it looks bluffy and they call lighter.. you prob wont get three streets with an ace on the board but betting flop really doesnt accomplish what you are hoping for..

    ww
  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    izgrinder33 said:
    why don't you bet fold??
    I like this less than check calling. When you reraise pre you are repping a hand that can easily be an ace. When an ace falls many players will simply fold to your cbet with hands much worse than KK but only call with an ace or better.. the exact opposite of what you want. getting all worse cards to fold and only better ones to call.. not good.

    checking then betting later in the hand is something most rec players havent seen and would never do themselves.. so it looks bluffy and they call lighter.. you prob wont get three streets with an ace on the board but betting flop really doesnt accomplish what you are hoping for..

    ww
    I agree. There are so many variable in every hand you have to act accordingly. I've check called flop then lead turn and taken it down with way worse hands than KK on an A high board. I'm not saying thats always the ideal play but the point is their are lots of options and you can't give up to quick. In that case I was just float semi-bluffing but you have a real hand here.

    Part of the thing is you have to know your opponent for this hand. If you check/call the flop will he get it in with JJ thinking he's good if the turn bricks? Can you commit with this info? Is he so scared of an A he wouldn't bet/call with out one? If your saying you've been active and you perceive they are out to get you then you've been there long enough to accumulate this info.
  • TaintBDTaintBD Posts: 244Subscriber
    I like the idea of check-calling on that flop. I do believe smarter players will put me on JJ-KK when I check an A high flop and just bet to see if I fold. There is another player, though,m so I did not think the initial raiser would bluff into two of us. I should have check-called and evaluated the Turn play!!! Thanks for all the great advice.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    TaintBD said:
    I like the idea of check-calling on that flop. I do believe smarter players will put me on JJ-KK when I check an A high flop and just bet to see if I fold. There is another player, though,m so I did not think the initial raiser would bluff into two of us. I should have check-called and evaluated the Turn play!!! Thanks for all the great advice.
    TBD

    I think there is a very VERY small portion of a normal player pool that

    a) correctly deduce that you probably have a big pair below the Ace
    b) will act on it by bluffing you

    Therefore I simply dont worry about it. If of course you are in a game where someone might bluff you off the hand but also would call you with worse then by all means betting the flop is another line you can take. as always its villain(s) dependent

    ww
    by 1TaintBD
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