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CLPer vs. Competent 10/25 reg Best line?

Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
Game 10/25 has just started for about an hour.

V just sits down two seats to my left after player leaves game. I have never played with this reg. This player pool is relatively small and all of the regs know of each other. I am a new face. V most likely knows I'm playing up from my normal game.

Hero's stack $7500

V raises UTG to $75 with $10k stack. Fishy player UTG+2 calls and everyone else folds to me in the BB.

I call with K J

Flop Q 10 9

I check and V c-bets to $125 fishy folds and I c/r to $325. V instantly 3 bets $1125.

Hero?

«1

Comments

  • pokertime Posts: 2,194Subscriber
    I say pop him back now. It's unknowns so you really need to just play straight forward. Lots of card could kill the action on the turn, he could have a set now, also your hand is disguised so he may re-pop as a bluff though I would doubt it. Maybe if it was rainbow I call but that's board is trouble even though you binked it. If he's bluffing then he may shut down when you call or with a scared turn card so just bump it up now. He probably has a set or AKd unless he thinks your FOS and mad you c/r him!
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    well if hes a good player your reraise is never really a bluff. tough.

    his range is sets AKdd. KJdd I guess maybe A9 dd.

    if hes aware you normally play smaller and he thinks he can move you off a hand then I would flat call and hope for a good card to check.

    if you dont know then prob better to just go ahead and reraise. id make it like 3000 ish
  • tomorrow33tomorrow33 Posts: 485Subscriber
    OOP I think it's a 4-bet. You don't have any info on this V so you don't know whether he is capable of doing this with some kind of bluff and the fact that he was the the pre flop raiser in EP his range is narrowed to sets and big combo draws, both of which he's not folding.

    You could lose action from these hands if say he's got AK and the board pairs or he's got a set and a comes and your left wondering if your good. I say 4-bet whilst you know you've got the nuts against an unknown.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    With these limited reads (maybe this reg-looking guy is a station or even a drooler), I am re-raising to $2800. No point in slowplaying flop OOP where there are so many potential action-killers on the turn when we don't know if Villain is even capable of big laydowns.
  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    Your an UNK and havent played a hand in hour.
    You look like a NIT more than Fish playing up.

    Your not getting some extra thin value. Trying something crazy will let him get there.
    Raise. It just is what it is. Overbet AI then.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    snapper35 said:
    Your an UNK and havent played a hand in hour.
    You look like a NIT more than Fish playing up.

    Your not getting some extra thin value. Trying something crazy will let him get there.
    Raise. It just is what it is. Overbet AI then.
    All ins are generally never a bluff.. So if villain has say a one pair type hand then he might fold. If you raise to say 2800 he is very tempted to see the turn THEN you get his whole stack ..

    If he has a combo draw he will likely just ship it all in and you can snap him off. If he thinks he can push you around because Hero hasnt played this high betting 3000 allows him to still feel you might fold..

    ww
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    I think any 4bet looks SUPER SUPER strong.
    So I like AI.
    He has sets in his range and may not be able to fold it. Also AKdd in his range and I don't think AKdd is folding.

    If we 4b small and he flats are we really x/folding a diamond turn?
    If not, we're giving him free shot at rest of our stack here.
    I'm shoving...
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    if I c/r, he 3 bets and I 4 bet here against competent competition, doesn't this look like a completely nutted hand to a good hand reader? Wouldn't he fold out all hands except for sets and big combo draws?
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    snapper35 said:
    Your an UNK and havent played a hand in hour.
    You look like a NIT more than Fish playing up.

    Your not getting some extra thin value. Trying something crazy will let him get there.
    Raise. It just is what it is. Overbet AI then.
    I never said I haven't played a hand in over an hour. I've been somewhat active.
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Jonw23 said:
    if I c/r, he 3 bets and I 4 bet here against competent competition, doesn't this look like a completely nutted hand to a good hand reader? Wouldn't he fold out all hands except for sets and big combo draws?
    What other hands (that he plays like that) do you think u can get future value from by flatting?
    Maybe AA, KK? Possibly if he b3b them over a x/r..., but so many cards kill your action.
    There's small chance he goes with those hands as well, but I think you basically have to hope he flopped big and goes with it...
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sure I think a 4 bet looks super strong..

    But I think you ONLY get called by a set or a combo draw when you ship all in. And you might even get both to fold if you ship..

    This is really kinda of a no win situation where you simply dont have enough information to make the absolute best decision.

    You may have the nuts at the moment but you dont have the absolute nuts.. So If villain has a set or has a combo draw he will know he is not drawing dead.. Therefore if you raise to say 3000 are you giving him proper odds? Are you giving him implied odds??

    So if he has a combo draw depending on if he is oe or pair and nut flush or gutshot and flush he will have from 9 to 17 outs.. so 9/45 to 17/45 for one street.. so around 1:5 to 1:3 .. so raising 2k into a now 2.5k pot you are giving him about 1:1 for one card..

    So are you going to call off if the board pairs and you bet and he cr ships? NO
    So are you going to call off if a diamond comes and you bet and he cr ships? NO


    so with a raise of 3k he still THINKS he has the right price to draw but in fact he is making a pricing mistake AND you wont pay off if he hits..

    Well anyways I hope I did the math correctly.. always suspect ha ha..but thats why I would raise even if it did look super strong..

    ww
  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    Thehammah said:
    [quote="snapper35;56490"]Your an UNK and havent played a hand in hour.
    You look like a NIT more than Fish playing up.

    Your not getting some extra thin value. Trying something crazy will let him get there.
    Raise. It just is what it is. Overbet AI then.
    All ins are generally never a bluff.. So if villain has say a one pair type hand then he might fold. If you raise to say 2800 he is very tempted to see the turn THEN you get his whole stack ..

    @hammer
    WTF no part of above the above says OB AI only. All the sudden this "reg" Is a world class player and not going to call AI's bs UNK. I'm not Making it into a leveling wars with 2 UNKs or FPS. they both could think each other is a drooler left alone level 4's. I said raise or OB AI then If you don't want to guess turns. Very little info, does he want different lines? Does he want more value out of this or pot is to big? You said raise $200 difference to 3k than Chan's bet. We are beating a dead horse.

    The V is strong, wants to build pot. Have to think about turns before now. Gambol and wait til turn then donk blank turns to induce V to shove like he still has fold EQ.

    @jow23, dont take it personal? All
    we have is your preamble. So post of your hands and how your image has changed. New face, playing up, going on for an hour without hands. That's your image.

  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    Snapper,

    Don't take it the wrong way. I thought you may have misread the post. Thinking o haven't been involved is all.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    A couple of things:

    1) Small detail, but you said he sat down two seats to your left, then you said he was UTG and you were BB. That sounds like your direct left unless I'm missing something.

    2) Villain raised UTG so unless I have other information (which you don't because you've not played with him before), I have to give him a fairly standard UTG value range, maybe 77+, AT+, and all suited broadways. With that value range, many hands in his range bang or semi-bang this flop (QQ, TT, 99, KJs, AQ, QTs, QJs, AKdd, AJdd).

    Starting the hand 300bb deep, as soon as that flop is spread and you're done pooping yourself cause you flopped the joint, you need to make a plan for getting in stacks. 100bb deep that would be easy. 300bb, not so much. I like the c/r flop, I think you need to get in four bets in order to get stacks in here. So V bets $125, I'd make it bigger trying to set up stacks, maybe $400-$525. I think the bigger you make it, the less "value-y" it looks and the more "bluff-y" it looks. Like you have the NFD or QJ or JT or something along those lines.

    As played, a 4-bet is in order. I would bet any amount that you think in the moment makes you look the most bluff-y to this villain. Kind of a game flow thing, could be AI, could be like $2500-$3000. Really, even a smallish 4-bet to say $2200 still sets up stacks.

    I would not want to just call as there are SO many cards that come that kill our action on the turn. We would HATE V to check behind on turn if we let V keep the initiative on the flop.

    I can't wait to read the results.
  • Jonw23 Posts: 175SubscriberProfessional
    The reason I posted is because I believed I did make a mistake by not 4 betting the flop. I was thinking that with him making such an aggressive action he would be betting any non scary turn. What happened was that I just flatted and the turn peeled off 4. I checked and he ranked for 4-5 minutes and checked back. The river came off the 2. Final board of:

    Q 10 9 4 2

    OTR I was sort of upset that I missed value so I over bet the river $4k.

    He tanked for about 2 minutes and folded.

    In retrospect I guess I should have just 4 bet the flop and if called confined to lead turn. Or maybe call flop and lead turn small? Or maybe block the river to induce a raise?

    Who knows maybe he folds there anyways? NLHE #neversolved.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    So are you going to call off if the board pairs and you bet and he cr ships? NO
    So are you going to call off if a diamond comes and you bet and he cr ships? NO
    ww
    What does this mean, cr ship? Do you mean c/r ships? V is in position. You gotta read the OP better sometimes. Details like position are pretty important.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    @snapper. If villain isnt calling one pair hands regardless but he might fold sets and combo draws if you go all in isnt it better to just raise?

    also even if there is a small chance he would make a move he cant if you go all in

    no need for WTFs just ask ill explain

    @reedmylips. i was referring to villain having implied odds. ie we wont pay him off if he hits his hand. so raising with no other information is best because we still get value from villains range but he is making a mistake and hero can still fold if outdrawn

    sorry if I didnt explain this well.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,311Pro
    Back to basics. You profit from others mistakes. You want him to make a mistake. While in theory a mistake he might make is finding a bluff later, its much more likely his mistake of choice will be to either overvalue a hand you have beat, or pay too much of a price for a hand that could draw to beat yours. If you just call or size a raise so that he is getting a good price to draw then you are taking his ability to make that mistake. If he has air he is going to fold anyway, so why not let him have a chance to make either of the two most likely mistakes, and raise an amount that gives him a bad price to chase a flush.

    Look at how this could effect the rest of your day if for some reason this goes to showdown. You are now wearing a scared money sign on your forehead and are going to get pummeled as even bad players will read that sign and know what to do.

    Since you overbet the river you are now wearing the "I like to trap sign".
  • ClockClock Posts: 1,133Subscriber
    Jonw23 said:
    The reason I posted is because I believed I did make a mistake by not 4 betting the flop. I was thinking that with him making such an aggressive action he would be betting any non scary turn. What happened was that I just flatted and the turn peeled off 4. I checked and he ranked for 4-5 minutes and checked back. The river came off the 2. Final board of:

    Q 10 9 4 2

    OTR I was sort of upset that I missed value so I over bet the river $4k.

    He tanked for about 2 minutes and folded.

    In retrospect I guess I should have just 4 bet the flop and if called confined to lead turn. Or maybe call flop and lead turn small? Or maybe block the river to induce a raise?

    Who knows maybe he folds there anyways? NLHE #neversolved.
    As stated earlier, I really favor 4b ship on flop, but if you did decide to just flat is because you're "gambling" that a brick comes on the turn.
    Well, the gamble paid off - you got a total brick !! :lol:
    I think it's an absolute MUST bet on the turn now!!!
    After you lead turn - sets are shipping I think and AA and KK probably tank-calling if you don't make it crazy huge.
    There's no point giving free card to combo draws.

    And again you got action killers to worry about on the river, plus it's very difficult to get stacks in w/o an overbet which at that point will make you look super polarized and let's face it how many are cable of huge bluff like that?
    You being an unknown to the villain, he probably not heroing you w/o a hand strong enough that he's happy to get it in with on flop/turn anyway.
    That's my take on it.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    see I think about it this way

    1) If villain has say AA are you really going to get any more money in the hand even if you call? Prob not..

    2) So given you really arent going to get any more with 1 pair hands I want to target villains range that WILL call more or will try to steal the pot. To do that you have to raise an amount that will deny villain the right price but also looks like I MIGHT fold if he ships.

    3) Thats why I like the 3k reraise.. he will based on what happened for sure fold his one pair hands..but at least I can get value from better.. maybe he might not even fold his one pair hands thinking Hero can be on flush draw..

    4) Then Hero still has the lead and when that brick comes on turn we can lead again.. This time pot is big enough to ship and it will be around .6 spr.. 6k pot.. 4500 ish behind.. easy ship.. plus this looks like it COULD still be a combo draw and who knows maybe hell hero with AA.. but he is for sure calling with a set AND a combo draw..

    ww
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