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Having fun 3 betting and just more Aggro pre..

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
Not exactly a HH but let me give you all some idea..

Last night I was the most card dead I have been in like weeks. A little reminder of how bad I was running in July and July. BUT.. unlike Jun and July I was doing really really well in some spots and that had to do with being alot more aggro pre and 3 betting much lighter..

Ex. 1, Villain and I have about equal stacks of around 1000. he has been raising to 25-30 in ep and mp with hands he likes limping others but always raises button unopened to him for 15. I had seen enough of him doing this. every button. I had also seen him fold to other 3 bets so this is a good spot to 3 bet with a polarized range.. so he raises to 15 sb calls I am in bb with J3 os and I threebet to 85.. well he snap calls.. FML right?? well not exactly..

Flop $170 3 7 6 well hero hits bottom pair and he either has a pair or high cards so I cbet and will double barrel if he calls. Hero bets $125 and villain quickly folds.. After this hand I was going to 3 bet him next with a wider value range but he ended up leaving so never got the chance..

Ex 2.. Well know loose aggro player.. except he bets really small with better value hands and the bigger the bet the weaker his hand is he wants to protect.. he even made it $55 with 55 over two limpers in one hand.. villain has around 700-800 Hero has around 1100.. Villain raises to 20.. this is generally indicative of some kind of SC.. he does this with 96 78 something like that.. V is on CO btn calls Hero looks down at Q9 h h and makes it $105 to go.. hero snap calls.. oops again.. He normally folds when I 3 bet for value.. well..

Flop $230 ish Q T 2 so I have top pair bad kicker and back door flush draw.. I check he checks..

Turn 3 puts bd club draw.. I bet $120 he calls..

river.. $500 ish.. 6 I check he checks I am good..

Last but not least..

four limpers in straddle pot.. Hero with stack over 1000 see A K she raises from sb to 60.. one caller in HJ..

Flop $125 9 4 2: h: I figure this missed him and I look like I have an overpair so I bet $80.. he says "why so much? I would call $75." ok thanks next time I actually have a hand I will bet a little less.. lol..


So pretty much all of my value hands either got not value or actually lost $$.. but stealing pots in good situations plus playing around with 3 bet spots allowed me to only lose a little last night. For sure I would have been down over $1000 had these situations not come up..

thoughts???

ww

Comments

  • MrFizzbinMrFizzbin Posts: 356Subscriber
    1) it's good to pay attention at the table well done
    2) how many times did you switch tables ?
    3) any thoughts of finding an O8 game just to change it up ?
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    nice table reading overall
    hand 1: very nice
    hand 2: u missed a bet (either flop or river)
    hand 3: very good

    some nights are just like that - where you get no value from "value hands" and you do best by playing and hitting marginal hands


    something to consider: was button raising 15 every time the pot was unopened because he's a button raiser? or because Hammah was in bb?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    beauregard said:



    something to consider: was button raising 15 every time the pot was unopened because he's a button raiser? or because Hammah was in bb?
    I honestly dont know. I havent really played with him much. I will keep a eye out for this type of thing going forward. There are players that know I am pretty tight. and these are the ones that I would like to target that might try to exploit this.
    beauregard said:


    hand 2: u missed a bet (either flop or river)
    Maybe.. I am not so sure I am getting called by this guy and his range has so many suited connectors. He isnt the type to bluff rivers so if he had bet .. and especially if it was some small stupid value bet it would almost 100% be a flush.. So my plan was to bet non club and non straight rivers against him. A small value bet.. maybe a little bigger than my turn bet.. but alas one of the worst cards came out.. He probably would call with a T but not much else I think..
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    MrFizzbin said:
    1) it's good to pay attention at the table well done
    thanks..actually makes the game alot more fun.. especially when I win with like J3.. lol..
    MrFizzbin said:
    2) how many times did you switch tables ?
    I was at the main game the whole time. I moved seats a few times throughout the night to get position on players I wanted to play against.
    MrFizzbin said:
    3) any thoughts of finding an O8 game just to change it up ?
    I do this all the time. I actually played OE last monday when @drewshark came into town. he played the 500 cap game and I played OE at hollywood park. Prior to last night I had been running above EV for the last month. Wed is probably my next day to play and will again goto my NL game as the bobsy twins will be there and game is always good when they are there..
    :wink:
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    I think your postflop lines were good, but I think your 3bet bluff squeeze sizings were way too big. You are risking too much money on your bluffs, so you aren't getting good odds on your preflop 3bet bluff. I would also want information on Villain 1's stickiness tendencies versus 3bets before I squeeze trash (J3o) from the blinds against him.

    Quick question: What were your plans in Hands 1 and 2 if you happened to flop airball? For example, what would you do in Hand 1 if flop was A85ss or K92cc or T84dd? Or what would you do in Hand 2 if flop was 832r (1 heart) or J85cc.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    Thehammah said:

    I honestly dont know. I havent really played with him much. I will keep a eye out for this type of thing going forward. There are players that know I am pretty tight. and these are the ones that I would like to target that might try to exploit this.
    I only mention this because I've notice in my games how some buttons will raise/min raise when checked to against tight blinds (which is sometimes me!).
    Sometimes, when it's me - I'll make an off-hand comment like, "Gee, must be nice to always pick up a hand when you're on the button!" to let them know that I know what they're up to - which can result in them slowing down a bit.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    DavidChan said:


    Quick question: What were your plans in Hands 1 and 2 if you happened to flop airball? For example, what would you do in Hand 1 if flop was A85ss or K92cc or T84dd? Or what would you do in Hand 2 if flop was 832r (1 heart) or J85cc.
    great exercise here....
  • ANason21ANason21 Posts: 166Subscriber
    DavidChan said:
    I think your postflop lines were good, but I think your 3bet bluff squeeze sizings were way too big. You are risking too much money on your bluffs, so you aren't getting good odds on your preflop 3bet bluff. I would also want information on Villain 1's stickiness tendencies versus 3bets before I squeeze trash (J3o) from the blinds against him.

    Quick question: What were your plans in Hands 1 and 2 if you happened to flop airball? For example, what would you do in Hand 1 if flop was A85ss or K92cc or T84dd? Or what would you do in Hand 2 if flop was 832r (1 heart) or J85cc.
    I agree that the sizing is a bit on the large side. David's 3-bet bluffing theory podcast does a pretty good job indicating what sizing you should use for a 3-bet bluff. I usually calculate a pot-sized raise and go just a little smaller. So facing a button raise to $15 I may make it $45 (pot sized raise would be about $50). If you don't think that gives you enough fold equity, then it might not be a good spot for a light 3-bet and you should depolarize your 3-betting range range instead.

    With a raise to $20 and a call before it gets to us I may make it like $75 (pot sized raise would be about $85). This is why one caller with an overcall or two is such a good squeeze spot -- because of the extra dead money, you get the added fold equity of a large bet without having to overbet the pot like you did in the examples.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I have been raising bigger in general pre with my value hands and bluffs..

    I will take your considerations and maybe raise a little less.

    As far as certain textures Kxx board I think is a great texture as fewer Kx hands are getting called by villains..

    Ax hands are more likely I think to get called so if the board is really wet with an ace I might just give up Like A T x dd or something like that..

    T84 dd really hits villains range and I against depending on my read at the time would probably give up there..

  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited August 2015
    I agree with your thoughts regarding Kxx flops.

    As for your fear of Axx flops, it just depends. While people tend to have more Ax in their ranges for calling 3bets, they may not be calling AJ/AT against your tight female image because they are worried about your having them dominated. I also think that these Villains would probably raise larger with AK based off your reads on their preflop bet sizing patterns where you normally expected to raise bigger with premiums. This is especially true of Villain 2 where you thought that his prefix sizing seemed tilted towards SCs.

    I also think that the snap calls from these players usually feel like speculative hands like suited Broadways, small pairs and SCs looking to flop lucky against you.

    in other words, I wouldn't be so scared of Axx flop textures against Villain 1/2. You can probably attack Axx boards effectively against them...whether you decide to go for a c bet bluff or sometimes even a delayed c bet if you think Villains won't stab much versus a flop check).

    If you think that their ranges are pretty loose for calling your 3bets in these spots, then I would also agree that T84dd flop would be a problematic texture to c bet bluff.
    by 1JB401
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    dave

    for the two specific villains their ranges would definitely be suited connector heavy so the T84 boards w a suit would def hit their ranges

  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    edited August 2015
  • LesterDiamondLesterDiamond Posts: 152Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    Thehammah said:

    I honestly dont know. I havent really played with him much. I will keep a eye out for this type of thing going forward. There are players that know I am pretty tight. and these are the ones that I would like to target that might try to exploit this.
    I only mention this because I've notice in my games how some buttons will raise/min raise when checked to against tight blinds (which is sometimes me!).
    Sometimes, when it's me - I'll make an off-hand comment like, "Gee, must be nice to always pick up a hand when you're on the button!" to let them know that I know what they're up to - which can result in them slowing down a bit.
    Lol I would raise your blind from the button every single orbit if you made that comment
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    LesterDiamond said:

    Lol I would raise your blind from the button every single orbit if you made that comment
    And I would 3-bet you with J3os.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    beauregard said:
    LesterDiamond said:

    Lol I would raise your blind from the button every single orbit if you made that comment
    And I would 3-bet you with J3os.
    now now boys.. we arent playing against ourselves.. the key here is to watch what your opponents are raising with in very late position and then either raise as a bluff or for value..

    the J3 really didnt matter my hand.. and I thought he would fold like he had done before.. But I guess this time he had a hand he wanted to call with.. no problem.. I had a plan and the flop was good to me in the sense that his calling range would be high cards or small pairs and this flop missed most of that range..

    In my fantasies of this play now are getting called in hand 1 .. hit another 3 on the turn and get it all in against Aces.. ha ha.. then I know I would have the David Chan badge of 3 betting.. :wink:
  • snapper35 Posts: 243Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    beauregard said:
    LesterDiamond said:

    Lol I would raise your blind from the button every single orbit if you made that comment
    And I would 3-bet you with J3os.

    Yea nobody talks like this with AA.
    So many tells preflop you can pick up on and 3bet way wider than J3o.

    Ive heard Vs dont adjust on average until the 3rd time. I have picked on a guy just to try to tilt him and most adjust by just calling after the 10th time-lol. By that time Ive found another guy at the table to tillt and jsut go back and forth.
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