Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Raised on turn after flopping top 2, 300+ BBs deep

chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
edited August 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
5/5nl
Villain has just must moved to the main game less than 1 orbit before this hand. I've never played with him before. White guy, late 20s, flannel shirt, headphones, hat. Stack is $1600.

Hero : collared shirt white guy. My winning image at this table isn't that relevant since he basically just got here. Stack : about $2000.

Utg limps, villain limps in MP, MP1 limps, I check option in SB with K 9, BB checks option.

Flop ($25)
K 9 6
Checks to villain in MP who bets $25, MP1 calls, hero x/r to $110, villain calls, MP1 folds.

Turn ($270)
A
Hero bets $155, villain raises to $360.

Hero?



Comments

  • tomorrow33tomorrow33 Posts: 485Subscriber
    I don't see any value hands V could have the we beat and there really is no draws V can have that he'd get to the turn with...

    It's hard to see how the A could've helped Vs hand unless he limped in EP with AK. We've shown a fair amount of strength in c/r on the flop and lead more than half pot on the turn and V has pretty much min clicked it back.

    I can see V doing this with a set of 6s and set of 9s. Limp in early position and just flat call your c/r as he really has nothing to protect against. Obviously there's only one combo KK and 99 that V could have and it's also possible he limped with AA from up front and has now turned a set. We've got no info on the V and unless you think he's capable of turning a hand like Kx into a bluff hoping your scared of the A I think it's a fold. Your calling $205 to win almost $800 so it's about 4:1 so you could call and potentially get a cheap showdown if V was stabbing at the turn and shuts down. You could also improve but I'd be very careful as we could be drawing to 2 outs (if V has set of 9s) and we could also be drawing dead.
  • LesterDiamondLesterDiamond Posts: 152Subscriber
    Bottom set or random spaz play.
  • Dab44 Posts: 411Subscriber
    I prefer a lead out on this flop...pot flop and pot turn, then it would be a bit easier to evalute the situation here. But as played, man idk its kind of an odd one.There is no combo draws on this rainbow board. He could have aces up. People love to peel with any pair and an ace kicker..I would think he's weighted towards value u hand. However, u are getting turned pot odds and u may still have the best hand. I would just call and re evalute.
  • johnamenjohnamen Posts: 55Subscriber
    Look for a better spot. If you wernt beaten on the flop, jm pretty sure your beaten on the turn. Going broke in a limped pot blows.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    johnamen said:
    Look for a better spot. If you wernt beaten on the flop, jm pretty sure your beaten on the turn. Going broke in a limped pot blows.
    Johnamen..

    Just because its a limped pot is NOT the issue. Hand reading in limped pots is just as useful as in raised pots.. In fact this being a limped pot means villain has more WAY more value hands that we beat in fact..

    Hes young.. therefore I am NOT putting 96 or K6 suited out of his range.. There is one K9 suited left ( Kh 9H) and two 96 suited left dias and hearts.. if hes even more wide there are more unsuited K9s and K6s left although I would discount those..

    Now there is one open ended.. 78 of which I would put all his suited in there.. maybe even a few unsuited 78s as well.

    Now I talked to Jake about this and villain was second limper..so he could have say AA he was hoping someone raised so he could back raise.. I doubt he has AK..

    So yes he has A6 and A9 66 all in his range..

    BUT given the odds he is giving Jake I am going to call and see what villain does on the river. Basically play "5th street chicken as Bart likes to describe it."

    I also would have lead out on this board.. the check raise is really strong and many players would fold weak kings and generally only call with draws or hands that beat us. Had Jake lead flop got called lead turn and got raised.. there I think its pretty much a clear fold unless villain is bad enough to bet too small and gave us juicy odds to try and peel..

    If jake filled up on the river I am going to just lead out.. unless I felt like 95% this guy would bet and call a raise.. In fact I am going to bomb the river if I fill up.. especially if its the king ..

    ww
  • johnamenjohnamen Posts: 55Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    [quote="johnamen;56904r a better spot. If you wernt beaten on the flop, jm pretty sure your beaten on the turn. Going broke in a limped pot blows.
    Johnamen..

    Just because its a limped pot is NOT the issue. Hand reading in limped pots is just as useful as in raised pots.. In fact this being a limped pot means villain has more WAY more value hands that we beat in fact..

    Hes young.. therefore I am NOT putting 96 or K6 suited out of his range.. There is one K9 suited left ( Kh 9H) and two 96 suited left dias and hearts.. if hes even more wide there are more unsuited K9s and K6s left although I would discount those..

    Now there is one open ended.. 78 of which I would put all his suited in there.. maybe even a few unsuited 78s as well.

    Now I talked to Jake about this and villain was second limper..so he could have say AA he was hoping someone raised so he could back raise.. I doubt he has AK..

    So yes he has A6 and A9 66 all in his range..

    BUT given the odds he is giving Jake I am going to call and see what villain does on the river. Basically play "5th street chicken as Bart likes to describe it."

    I also would have lead out on this board.. the check raise is really strong and many players would fold weak kings and generally only call with draws or hands that beat us. Had Jake lead flop got called lead turn and got raised.. there I think its pretty much a clear fold unless villain is bad enough to bet too small and gave us juicy odds to try and peel..

    If jake filled up on the river I am going to just lead out.. unless I felt like 95% this guy would bet and call a raise.. In fact I am going to bomb the river if I fill up.. especially if its the king ..

    ww[/quote]

    Hmmmm, never said hand reading wasn't important. The fact that it's a limped pot means he can have pretty much anything . then I stated it would indeed suck to go broke here.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sorry didnt mean to sound snitty.. that old saying "never go broke in a limped pot" is just "old school" thinking.. for a time and players that dont have our skill level..

    Dont think that way.. think "new school" and still put villain on ranges and count combos and then determine the liklihood that villain has better and proceed..

    getting rid of old thinking was one of the most difficult things I did and I still catch myself often and have to go back and start preflop etc..

    ww
  • johnamenjohnamen Posts: 55Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Sorry didnt mean to sound snitty.. that old saying "never go broke in a limped pot" is just "old school" thinking.. for a time and players that dont have our skill level..

    Dont think that way.. think "new school" and still put villain on ranges and count combos and then determine the liklihood that villain has better and proceed..

    getting rid of old thinking was one of the most difficult things I did and I still catch myself often and have to go back and start preflop etc..

    ww
    Lol its all good. I think you have alot of good things to say. And yes you dint come off all that welcoming hahahhaa. But seriously, good input.
  • mythomaniac Posts: 284Subscriber
    Check raising flop put us in such a weird spot. When someone resists on such a dry board it's close, and if it's close I lean toward folding OOP. Until you get more info on how aggro this guy is , I'm picking a better spot as others stated. As played, I agree with Wendy on playing 5th street chicken.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,078AdministratorLeadPro
    edited August 2015
    I don't see how you can have a plan of 5th street chicken here when all value hands beat you on the turn. Calling turn to c/f river is more applicable if you have a hand like say top two on a board like 782 turn 6, where your opponent could be playing a stop raise on you in position to check back the river. Once he bets the river again you know he most likely has a straight or a set so you can easily fold.

    Here we beat nothing when the ace comes on the turn. Plus when he raises you after you check raise the flop it shows immense strength. The only hand that he could be overplaying here would be 96 and that doesnt raise you on the turn after your check raise. 78 also wouldn't raise you on the turn. You don't have enough equity to call and improve plus there are some reverse implied odds in the fact that you may share a two pair that shares a higher two pair with him. If the board had a front door flush draw in it, I could see calling as your opponent may have A× X× of the front door flush draw. --Bart
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    In my text convo with Wendy , I was having a hard time ranging villain on something other than : 66, AK, AA, A9 (in that order of likelihood), and bluffs (can he have many bluffs here since he bet/called flop with a player behind ?) And it sure seems highly unlikely he would have 78 and choose to raise the turn small.

    Doesn't my line look really strong ?? And yet he's raising me on a later street ? Wow.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    With the x/r on the flop, I'm trying to get called by 78 and Kx. Stacks are deep and I'd like to get a lot of money in the middle with my hand. I could lead full pot , but I thot it might look a little bit bluffy / drawy to x/r. I've noticed people seem to be less likely these days to fold top pair to x/r since so many players take that line with draws.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    chilidog said:


    Doesn't my line look really strong ?? And yet he's raising me on a later street ? Wow.
    That's the key in this hand. He would be suicidal to bluff in this spot, even a semibluff. Are there any value hands were beat? Just 96, and there are only two combos of 96s left. Time for a hero fold.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    chilidog said:
    With the x/r on the flop, I'm trying to get called by 78 and Kx. Stacks are deep and I'd like to get a lot of money in the middle with my hand. I could lead full pot , but I thot it might look a little bit bluffy / drawy to x/r. I've noticed people seem to be less likely these days to fold top pair to x/r since so many players take that line with draws.
    I actually disagree with this .. Even at the 5/5 level I see almost no one cr with a draw.. Almost everyone is c/r with two pair or better to protect their hand.. thats why I think that looks too strong and might get everything worse to fold.. not because you actually have two pair but because the Rec players do this with 2pr+ so they think YOU have 2pr+

    thats why I like leading with 2pr+ in most situations and c/r on draws to get folds..

    ww
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Results below :
    Spoiler:
    I tank / folded turn to his raise.
    If this hand had happened an hour or two later , I think I would have called turn and called down river assuming 78 didn't get there. The villain proved to be very aggressive with a high 3bet frequency and several flop x/r. My theory is that the villain read weakness on my turn bet sizing and used the ace as a scare card to take the pot away with whatever hand he had.
Sign In or Register to comment.