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building a side pot with the nut flush draw

workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
edited August 2015 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$3/5. BB $125, MP $450. MP is a very straightforward player who doesn't get out of line. makes big laydowns. i'm on the cutoff and cover both. very good image.

MP limps, I raise to $25 with A 4, BB and MP call.
Flop $75 Q J 2

Check to me. I bet $45, BB all in $100, MP calls $100.

What's the best play on the flop? call or raise. If raising, how much? If calling, what range of hands does the MP player that we don't beat? Is there any reason to not raise if there are no hands that we don't beat? Or are there better hands that we can raise that would fold to a raise?

Comments

  • johnamenjohnamen Posts: 55Subscriber
    I think a call would be nice simply because your in position. If you spike your club you may be able to stack him, I think he's somewhat strong here since he's cold calling the $100 all in. So to me he's got a made hand.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    not sure I agree that MP calling the $100 has a made hand.
    i'd expect a made hand to repop it pre flop - or at the minimum to bet his hand on the flop... he didn't - he checked and check/called a bet and raise.
    KT is very possible here as well as broadways like KJ, AK, JT and AT.
    BB's shove could easily be a FD or even a FD/SD combo. He might have a combo like T 9. But he doesn't seem all that strong being he check/raised with no fold equity.

    Since MP is a straightforward player who will make big laydowns, I don't see the need to create a side pot - especially since we're in position. it's 55 to win 320-ish. Easy call. And re-eval the turn.

    I guess we could try to get MP to fold out a J. But with one player all in - that will mean we'll have to go to showdown and show the trash/draw we were repopping the flop with. Which can have bad future implications against the table (and our image). I don't see the value of pushing out MP. If we ain't winning the pot - I'd rather he does since he's so easy to play.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    MP only has $450 and just committed 125 of it???

    Players that overcall bets and 3 bets are generally super strong or drawing to super strong.. So that means his range is like sets maybe two pair and combo flush draws maybe KT or K9 AT ..

    If you were deeper I think a raise is important to get more money in the pot when he has a draw and maybe get a better made hand to fold..

    Given MP is so short I think a call is fine.. it will be tough though if you dont hit on the turn. If you think you can get him to fold a Queen by reraising then I would do that.. Even better if you think he will call with his King high flush draws like KT cc K9 cc etc.. perfect combo bet spot.. he will fold his better made hands and call with his worse draws..

    So call if you dont think he would fold to say a ship.. ship if you think he might fold better but call with worse draw..

    ww
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    This situation is why I would generally limp with A4s rather than to play it as the PFR when we flop a draw.

    I would overlimp, likely get SB in too, 4 ways to the flop. Now on the flop, if someone bets, you can decide to either put pressure with a raise, or just call if you think you have no fold equity.

    As the PFR in this situation, there is no way in hell you have the best hand vs. an AI short stack and MP who keeps calling. You obv have the best draw, but you have no fold equity vs BB, and likely none vs. MP.

    I would call and play your hand purely as a draw from this point out.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    KJ, AK, JT and AT.
    this guy who makes big laydowns isn't cold calling a CR with action behind with a gutter or second pair.
    his range is like sets maybe two pair and combo flush draws maybe KT or K9 AT
    Draw heavy board with action behind in what is now becoming a biggish pot. He's not smooth calling a set or twopair. This is a straightforward player. I have the nut flush so i beat him now if he has the flush draw as he's not likely to have K2s. I also beat him if he has a straight draw.
    I don't see the need to create a side pot
    why not if I feel I have the best hand to help get money in? If a blank comes on the turn, I'm betting the turn to get value from his draws but I'm not getting anything more from a blank river and am probably loosing the main to the all in.
    This situation is why I would generally limp with A4s rather than to play it as the PFR when we flop a draw.
    Over limping has its place but in holdem there is a lot of value in taking control of the betting lead as I can rep flops that I miss and such. If I KNEW I was going to flop the nut flush draw, then limping would be OK I guess to get weaker flush draws to call but most times I miss and still need to think of a way to win.
    You obv have the best draw, but you have no fold equity vs BB, and likely none vs. MP.
    This seems to support my case for raising flop. I'm likely behind the BB and likely ahead of the guy who still has chips. If i build a sidepot, I might loose the main to the BB but can win money with A-hi if me and MP both wiff on our hands.
  • beauregard Posts: 1,592Subscriber
    edited August 2015
    workinghard said:
    this guy who makes big laydowns isn't cold calling a CR with action behind with a gutter or second pair.
    workinghard said:
    He's not smooth calling a set or twopair. This is a straightforward player. I have the nut flush so i beat him now if he has the flush draw as he's not likely to have K2s.
    workinghard said:
    If a blank comes on the turn, I'm betting the turn to get value from his draws but I'm not getting anything more from a blank river and am probably loosing the main to the all in.
    One of these things ^^^^ is NOT like the other....

    if V isn't cold calling a CR with a gutter or 2nd pair
    if V isn't smooth calling a set or 2 pair
    Then V can only have a Q... KQ or AQ... right?

    How do we ever plan on getting value on the turn against a draw if V isn't calling with a draw?

    This may be one of those hands that words can't do justice. Maybe there are a lot of intangibles here that "you've got to be there to understand."
    If V is only on a draw, then you're right - a raise or shove here is best.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    My feeling is that his range is clearly a open ended straight or flush draw or maybe AQ.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    Villain limp calls preflop, then check/calls a bet and shove on the flop. You have the NFD, so he can't have that. KT/T9 maybe, but otherwise he's going to have a made hand. I'm not usually trying to bluff made hands out of dry side pots, especially since you'll likely need to hit your hand to win the main pot. It's not like you need to protect your hand in some way. Just call and try and get the money in when you hit your flush.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    dpbuck said:
    Villain limp calls preflop, then check/calls a bet and shove on the flop. You have the NFD, so he can't have that. KT/T9 maybe, but otherwise he's going to have a made hand. I'm not usually trying to bluff made hands out of dry side pots, especially since you'll likely need to hit your hand to win the main pot. It's not like you need to protect your hand in some way. Just call and try and get the money in when you hit your flush.
    What made hands does he have that don't re raise flop or open raise preflop? Compare that range to the range of draws I beat.

    I'm not saying I'm sure raising is right, just that I think this is a spot where I really need to look at raising to build a sidepot with the best hand vs MP when it's likely I don't have the best hand to win the mainpot without hitting my draw.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    workinghard said:


    What made hands does he have that don't re raise flop or open raise preflop? Compare that range to the range of draws I beat.

    I'm not saying I'm sure raising is right, just that I think this is a spot where I really need to look at raising to build a sidepot with the best hand vs MP when it's likely I don't have the best hand to win the mainpot without hitting my draw.
    You don't think KQ and QT are in his range? How often is he continuing with a naked straight draw in this spot (all this action and a flush draw board)? I actually think he is heavily weighted towards made hands, especially since he can't have the NFD.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    dbuck.

    i agree that he can have alot of made hands. but I don think given this situation he would just flat with say a set or two pair. given his stack most players would just ship those

    so the question is will he fold a single pair of queens. if the anser is yes its way better to raise

    he will fold his better hand and prob would call the combo draw.
    by 1dpbuck
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    dbuck.

    i agree that he can have alot of made hands. but I don think given this situation he would just flat with say a set or two pair. given his stack most players would just ship those

    so the question is will he fold a single pair of queens. if the anser is yes its way better to raise

    he will fold his better hand and prob would call the combo draw.
    That's a great point. So, to take that one step further, if he has made hands that will fold, or lower draws that will call, we should bet. And if he won't fold those made hands, or will fold those draws we're ahead of anyway, then we should check.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    Thanks all for your thoughts. It's not a situation that happens often but I think it's a fun one to ponder. As they say in chess "when you find a good move, look for a better one."
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    well what happened?!??
  • hectorjelly Posts: 47Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    dbuck.

    i agree that he can have alot of made hands. but I don think given this situation he would just flat with say a set or two pair. given his stack most players would just ship those

    so the question is will he fold a single pair of queens. if the anser is yes its way better to raise

    he will fold his better hand and prob would call the combo draw.
    What good does us do to get him to fold a queen? We won't win the main pot unless we improve to a flush or possibly an ace, and if we have gotten the only guy with money left out of the pot we directly reduce our implied odds. I can't see any reason to raise here at all unless you somehow knew the main villain had a draw, and even then its not really a compelling reason since we dominate all draws.
  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    What good does us do to get him to fold a queen? We won't win the main pot unless we improve to a flush or possibly an ace, and if we have gotten the only guy with money left out of the pot we directly reduce our implied odds
    One argument you can make is that if MP has the queen and folds, then it reduces the chance that BB also has a queen so more likely he has a draw we beat.
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