Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

Block betting the river

wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I know Bart's not a fan of block betting but I ran across a hand tonight and starting thinking about the hand on the way home and wonder if this is a good case for block betting or naming your own price. WHat do you think?

Its a limped pot w 5 people in. I'm in the BB with 83o. Flop comes J83 with 2 spades. I bet and everyone but the cutoff calls. Turn is a blank like a 2. I bet, villian thinks than calls. River is another J. I chk and villian bets 2/3 pot. I fold and he shows me a busted flush draw.

I started thinking well should I bet my hand on the river. Well no because if he had a J he would certainly call and a busted flush draw will fold (only better will call). Well what if I had a jack. Would I bet the river? Probably not because he'll bet a jack himself but would fold anything worse. He's not calling I believe with a pocket pr of 10s 9s etc 3 streets plus he would raise preflop in his position most likely. AGain only better will call and him having a j as well is unlikely.

So I would chk call with a J but with my hand (83) chking the river puts me in a tough spot barring any reads to an unknown who could easily have trips here or to someone who bets thin enough a better hand (unlikely) or of course a busted flush draw. This is a tough spot. It almost seems like I should name my price - say 1/2 pot size bet where I know only better is raising and I can safely fold.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Bart doesnt like block betting with a hand you can bet for value.

    In this situation if you think the player is not likely to raise you with a value hand and will fold draws and made hands that beat you and UNDERBLUFF is in order .. He talks about this all the time.. underbluffing the river is important to steal pots away from villains that might have a better hand than you but is likely to fold a large portion of their range..

    If you put villain on a range that includes a lot of draws then underbluffing the river is the play to make.

    ww
  • bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    Thehammah said

    Bart doesnt like block betting with a hand you can bet for value.

    In this situation if you think the player is not likely to raise you with a value hand and will fold draws and made hands that beat you and UNDERBLUFF is in order .. He talks about this all the time.. underbluffing the river is important to steal pots away from villains that might have a better hand than you but is likely to fold a large portion of their range..

    If you put villain on a range that includes a lot of draws then underbluffing the river is the play to make.

    ww
    I like this because you can potentially fold out better 8's and pocket nines. However if I know villain is very aggro and would turn draws into bluffs I might elect to check/call but that is very villain dependent and not something I'd elect to do on default.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Thats why Bobo its an UNDER bluff as apposed to a full size bluff.. its very hard to raise on that board without a big J or full house and those hands you wont get to fold anyways. But as you said you might get better 8s, 99-TT and of course all straight and flush draws..

    ww
  • Don't really agree with replies so far. If you "underbluff" (not really even sure what this means or if it's relevant at low stakes) this river you're never folding out 99-TT, A8, or even bad 8's to fold for a small river bet. It's tough to value bet 83 here. IMO, it's a check/evaluate. If you think there's a good chance he has a J based on his river bet and previous plays or if he's capable of value betting 99-TT, A8 etc then it's probably a fold.

    If he's capable of bluffing ,spewy, or makes a suspicious bet on the end then it's probably a call. I don't mind the fold if it was to a straightforward donk
  • BartBart Posts: 6,080AdministratorLeadPro
    I hate betting only to prevent my opponent from bluffing. Here that is exactly what a block bet would do. It kind of sucks because he does have a fair amount of jacks in his range and I agree that I would check/evaluate.

    The other important part of this hand is that when you check a board where top pair turns into trips on the river you give your opponent the green light to bluff because most people would continue betting trips at the end from up front. I've discussed bet, bet, checking/calling a weak top pair that turns into trips for exactly this reason. But I don't know why anyone would block.

    Bart
  • LucasE Posts: 167Member
    pokerja3 said

    Don't really agree with replies so far. If you "underbluff" (not really even sure what this means or if it's relevant at low stakes) this river you're never folding out 99-TT, A8, or even bad 8's to fold for a small river bet. It's tough to value bet 83 here. IMO, it's a check/evaluate. If you think there's a good chance he has a J based on his river bet and previous plays or if he's capable of value betting 99-TT, A8 etc then it's probably a fold.

    If he's capable of bluffing ,spewy, or makes a suspicious bet on the end then it's probably a call. I don't mind the fold if it was to a straightforward donk
    Underbluffs in low stakes games are going to be pretty rare because you need opponents that are capable of basic hand reading and able to make folds.

    Block betting in general is a pretty weak play (except in very specific scenarios) because it is a move that isn't really designed to accomplish what betting should do. If we block bet because we don't want missed draws to bluff what have we done? Made missed draws fold, which isn't terribly productive. If we block bet because we don't know if our hand is good what have we done? We're likely to get called by marginally better hands and get raised by better. It's a 'please let me get to showdown' move that isn't productive. It's used when we aren't sure what to do and don't want to get put into a tough spot.

    @wildncrazyguy - you want to bet 1/2 pot. Why? So better hands can raise you? What's the purpose of that? What hands will just call you? Worse hands (what hands)? Does that make this a value bet/fold?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    if we bet the river as a bluff, which hands are we intending to fold out?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said

    if we bet the river as a bluff, which hands are we intending to fold out?
    If I have the lead with say bottom two on this board and I am against a player who can bluf me on the river but is not likely to bluff RAISE me on the river then I see no reason why not to bet. If they have a jack I am going to get called, they may call with smaller pairs they might not.. but I think this maybe a viable line to bet to protect from being bluffed with someone capable of doing this after they missed their draw..

    now if the player is more of a straightforward player that will check behind their missed draws then I see no reason to bet or at least a much smaller reason.

    Another idea is if someone likes to peel with say second pair.. so they have an 8 maybe 8T or 89 by betting the river I might get them to fold that too.

    wendy
  • wildncrazyguywildncrazyguy Posts: 422Subscriber
    The idea of course of a block bet is to name your price. 1/2 pot size bet will likely only be raised by a boat. DO this vs having to call a 3/4 - pot sized bet. I understand Bart's opinion. Just means though if hes a bluffer and a thin better you have to call off more money which is the srgument for block betting. I guess you can get better to fold but unlikely since it was a limped pot so he most likely doesnt have 99 or 10 10 for ex.
Sign In or Register to comment.