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Let him barrel or get it in?

DavidFerrara Posts: 7Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
It's 2/5 at Aria. Effective stacks of 800.

UTG limps and solid, thinking aggro villain raises to 25, hero flats button with JJ. Fish in the bb calls, limper calls. Villain has been raising fairly wide, could easily be ISOing limper and bb fish, but we haven't seen villain make any mistakes. Hero has been playing pretty tight (most because of being rather card dead), and though hero hasn't shown down, hero hasn't gotten out of line.

Flop AJ9r, villain leads for 50, hero raises to 120 because the fish and maybe the limper will call with a lot of Ax and draw hands.

But... the fish and limper both fold. And the villain (has hero covered) goes 340.

Hero?

Comments

  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    DavidFerrara said

    It's 2/5 at Aria. Effective stacks of 800.

    UTG limps and solid, thinking aggro villain raises to 25, hero flats button with JJ. Fish in the bb calls, limper calls. Villain has been raising fairly wide, could easily be ISOing limper and bb fish, but we haven't seen villain make any mistakes. Hero has been playing pretty tight (most because of being rather card dead), and though hero hasn't shown down, hero hasn't gotten out of line.

    Flop AJ9r, villain leads for 50, hero raises to 120 because the fish and maybe the limper will call with a lot of Ax and draw hands.

    But... the fish and limper both fold. And the villain (has hero covered) goes 340.

    Hero?
    With position, I would just flat his raise and see what he does on the turn.
  • Agreed.

    With these stack sizes would hate to have him hero fold something like A9 or J9. I dont really see a card killing your action on a rainbow board all that much.

    Bart
  • DavidFerrara Posts: 7Member
    So we're just calling the 3-bet because he will barrel the turn most of the time with AJ, A9, J9 and AK? But wouldn't he slow down with AK if a Q came on the turn? Or if he had AQ and a K fell?

    Also, if I call the 3-bet, what do I do if an A falls on the turn?

    What about Bart's theory that people who put in a lot of money on the flop are never folding?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    DavidFerrara said

    So we're just calling the 3-bet because he will barrel the turn most of the time with AJ, A9, J9 and AK? But wouldn't he slow down with AK if a Q came on the turn? Or if he had AQ and a K fell?

    Also, if I call the 3-bet, what do I do if an A falls on the turn?

    What about Bart's theory that people who put in a lot of money on the flop are never folding?
    You said he was a good player.. Good players can raise fold.. why give him that option? when you just flat he is more in the blind of what you have AND he is agressive so he will most likely keep betting.. just let him.. Especially if there is an A on the turn I think even if that misses him he will still use it to represent and barrel again.

    With the 340 x 2 on the flop and the 100 pre the pot will be 780 on the turn.. You can easily raise all in and he will be getting pretty good odds to call off.. I wouldnt be too worried about any turn card and if he hits a 2 outer.. oh well..

    Wendy
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    wendyweissman said
    DavidFerrara said

    So we're just calling the 3-bet because he will barrel the turn most of the time with AJ, A9, J9 and AK? But wouldn't he slow down with AK if a Q came on the turn? Or if he had AQ and a K fell?

    Also, if I call the 3-bet, what do I do if an A falls on the turn?

    What about Bart's theory that people who put in a lot of money on the flop are never folding?
    You said he was a good player.. Good players can raise fold.. why give him that option? when you just flat he is more in the blind of what you have AND he is agressive so he will most likely keep betting.. just let him.. Especially if there is an A on the turn I think even if that misses him he will still use it to represent and barrel again.

    With the 340 x 2 on the flop and the 100 pre the pot will be 780 on the turn.. You can easily raise all in and he will be getting pretty good odds to call off.. I wouldnt be too worried about any turn card and if he hits a 2 outer.. oh well..

    Wendy
    I agree with Wendy. You're trying to get villain's entire stack, not trying to protect your hand, so I wouldn't use the excuse of "What if an A falls on the turn?" to be the reason why you jam on the flop, potentially causing hero to fold AK or A9. Call now, pot will be ginormous, let him bet the turn, raise all-in, or bet the turn all-in when checked to on the turn.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    DavidFerrara said

    So we're just calling the 3-bet because he will barrel the turn most of the time with AJ, A9, J9 and AK? But wouldn't he slow down with AK if a Q came on the turn? Or if he had AQ and a K fell?

    Also, if I call the 3-bet, what do I do if an A falls on the turn?

    If you shove flop he is hero folding AK or AQ most of the time if not all the time. He could even hero fold A9 or J9 depending on how good he is.

    If he has AK and a Q comes on the turn we are not losing any value by flatting the flop instead of jamming. Does that make sense?

    An A on the turn in no way changes our game plan of getting in the money. It's obviously not the best card for us but there is no way we can fold.

    You have to think long term with every hand.

    Sometimes you just run bad but as we know, it's all part of the game!
  • DavidFerrara Posts: 7Member
    Thanks for the great replies.

    I'm a fish and shoved flop, but when I thought further, I thought about better lines. I was reminded of a quote I heard in a training video on another site: "To maximize how much money you make from poker, it's not about doing what is +EV, it's about doing what is THE MOST +EV."

    Spoiler: Villain snap called with AA ... Frown
  • JamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    *pukes in mouth a little*
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    DavidFerrara said

    Thanks for the great replies.

    I'm a fish and shoved flop, but when I thought further, I thought about better lines. I was reminded of a quote I heard in a training video on another site: "To maximize how much money you make from poker, it's not about doing what is +EV, it's about doing what is THE MOST +EV."

    Spoiler: Villain snap called with AA ... Frown
    really sorry to hear about that. In the long run the increase in value you will make by taking the profitable line will make up for the coolers. I should know. last year I ran 8 sets into oversets. in one month there were three its brutal because its your whole stack. but these situations should only happen 1 time in 100 on average so you can see getting him to shove turn w ak hiw profitable it will be.

    I know it stings but I lost almost 12,000 last year in undersets so you havent run that bad and as long as your bankroll and emotion can handle it get back on the horse and try again. I needed to take a break and when I came back I moved down because it burned me to lose these so often. I could play higher but I dont

    you played it well but we all can learn from each other

    Wendy
  • Agree with others that calling and just getting it in on any turn card is fine. Nice cooler, though.....
  • CajunDragonCajunDragon Posts: 173Member
    Man that is some bullsh**! The show must go on....

    A good player told me if you think you can get your stack all in on the flop then just take that line. Had a similar hand at mirage but only 150 BB deep. Flopped set of jacks in a 3bet pot. Flop JsTs3c. I bet 3/4 pot, get min raised, then shove and guy has Qs8s and hits flush on the turn. I like getting sucked out on the turn instead of having to wait all the way to the river ;) Not really too bad since he had a gs draw too.

    Catching up on the Crush Live Poker videos today. GL at the tables everyone.

    Geoff
  • Travisp33 Posts: 15Member
    Just for fun, what if we flat villains open here and offer the "fish" and utg 7:1 and 8:1 respectively to tag along? We hate Ts and Qs, but nothing else really bothers us that much, right? Why are we folding out the player we want in the hand only to get heads up at a player it sounds like we respect? I disagree about the fish calling with lots of Ax hands pop vs a bet and a raise on tha board...
  • DavidFerrara Posts: 7Member
    I see your point, but I think maybe you disagree with the fish calling because you don't know this fish. I mean, uber fish taco. Right in the middle. All beef. Plus, he could have lots of draws that he is perfectly right to call with if I don't raise flop.

    Overall, I think my biggest mistake in the hand was flatting the preflop raise. If I 3-bet pre and get 4-bet, it's probably an easy fold. And the cooler never was.
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