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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
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PAHWM - 1/2 Bloated and MW OOP

UTG (hero) - ~425
UTG+1 (old guy, not very active but not old man coffee) - 146
MP (middle-aged middle-class white rec player, obv not used to having 1k in front of him) - covers
CO (neck tattoos, waaaaay too loose pre facing aggression, ie limp-calling multiple 3-bets per orbit OOP) - ~400
BTN (middle aged asian guy, just gambling, saw him flat closing the action with the nut straigth to scoop a 4-handed SD, has his chips in stacks between 14 and 27 high and dirty) - ~600

(7) - Hero straddles to 4, UTG+1 calls 4, MP raises to 17, CO calls 17, BTN calls 17, SB and BB fold.

hero has 9d7d and...

Comments

  • Jseeley Posts: 48Member
    I would raise to $80. If you are that comfortable playing post flop fold>call. I don't think either is that big of an error.
  • Obviously, I considered it or I wouldn't be straddling in the first place.

    If it helps, the range I assigned MP for continuing if I raised is [JJ+,AQ+,AxJx,KxQx]
    with him 4-betting [AA@75, QQ-KK@50, JJ@25, AxKx@50, AK@25, AxQx@25] and the rest flatting.
    (ldo I would need to fold to any non-minraise 4-bet)

    His continuing range is 64 combos and I lumped in about 30-35 other combos of stuff he raises because he feels like it which would fold facing a large (in $) raise.

    What would be your plan if you get multiple callers?
    Given the profiles for CO and BTN this doesn't seem unlikely.
  • I just muck this because these drawing hands suck OOP, but you obviously called so what is the flop?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am pretty sure that in theory folding is the best play here, and it's not close. But when I am at the table, I probably end up calling sometimes in this spot, especially against weak competition or if I had to fold a lot lately. However, the problem is that stack sizes are just not deep enough to create a lot of pressure postflop, which you need if you in order to play a drawing hand profitably from out of position.

    I think raising is not profitable either. If you raise to 80 and get only one caller (which would basically be the best you can hope for), the pot is around 200 and you only have 440 left. It's going to be difficult to make somebody fold a decent pair postflop with these stacks.If more than one player calls, you are basically done with the hand unless you hit a miracle flop. But a suited connector type of hand very often flops a little something, which will lead to expensive mistakes postflop since you don't konw how to proceed from out of position.
  • Well, even by Bart's more stringent 15-25-35 rule I'm getting the right price since it's only 13 more.

    I decide not to raise given CO and BTN profiles and plan to c/c lead turn if CO and BTN fold to a c-bet or c/r if they don't on all flops I pick up any kind of combo draw (even pair+gutshot+bdfd). Not married to the plan but I'm not flatting here without one.

    UTG (hero) - ~425
    UTG+1 (old guy, not very active) - 146
    MP (middle-aged middle-class white rec player, obv not used to having 1k in front of him) - covers
    CO (neck tattoos, waaaaay too loose pre facing aggression, ie limp-calling multiple 3-bets per orbit OOP) - ~400
    BTN (asian guy, just gambling, saw him flat closing the action with the nut straigth to scoop a 4-handed SD) - ~600

    (7) - Hero straddles to $4, UTG+1 limps, MP raises to 17, CO calls, BTN calls, SB and BB fold, hero has 9d7d and calls, UTG+1 calls

    (81) - 9s8d7s - hero?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am leading this flop often, something like 60% of pot. The initial preflop raiser has a poor relative position, so he really can't (or at least shouldn't) raise your bet with any overpair due to players left to act. There are a lot of good turn cards which you can barrel.
  • whatsyourplay? said

    I am leading this flop often, something like 60% of pot. The initial preflop raiser has a poor relative position, so he really can't (or at least shouldn't) raise your bet with any overpair due to players left to act. There are a lot of good turn cards which you can barrel.
    What exactly are these good turn cards for barrelling?
    As I see it, any card T-J is bad (non-diamond A or K are okay at best), any spade is bad, any 8 is bad, and non-diamond 5 or 6 is bad...
    That's 23 turns.

    I like diamonds except T-J and boats and bricks (18 turns), but I'll be OOP in a super sticky situation with 365 left and 231 in the pot if I get two callers (which is very likely given profiles and texture). Yes, this is why it sucks to play SC-type hands OOP, but recognizing and handling these border cases well is what makes up the difference between +EV and spew.

    What is your plan on these turns?

    Am I snap-shoving-or-folding depending on villain if I am raised OTF?
    It seems hard to imagine this bet just getting called all that often...

    edit: actually, I hate 6d.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    staaaaalin said

    Well, even by Bart's more stringent 15-25-35 rule I'm getting the right price since it's only 13 more.

    The 15-25-35 rule is a simplified tool which should serve as a rough guideline, but it shouldn't be applied regardless of other factors of a hand. Instead, we should anticipate how the hand is likely to develop on subsequent streets before we make the call.
    In this hand example, the pot is going to be 80 after we call, and we have about 400 left. And we are out of position in a multiway pot. Let's say the PFR cbets something like 50 and the BTN calls. Now, what are we doing with 9d7d on all those flops where we hit a little something?
    E.g. on Q94r? AK4dd? TT8r? etc .....
    We are just going to make many expensive mistakes postflop because we don't know how to proceed, so being mulitway and being OOP with a hand that likes to see more than 3 cards is just very very difficult to play.
    (The shorty makes this spot even worse.)

    Anyways, like I said I will often end up calling myself in this spot, just because folding for hours is not a lot of fun. But calling is -EV IMO.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    staaaaalin said

    What exactly are these good turn cards for barrelling?
    As I see it, any card T-J is bad (non-diamond A or K are okay at best), any spade is bad, any 8 is bad, and non-diamond 5 or 6 is bad...
    That's 23 turns.

    I like diamonds except T-J and boats and bricks (18 turns), but I'll be OOP in a super sticky situation with 365 left and 231 in the pot if I get two callers (which is very likely given profiles and texture). Yes, this is why it sucks to play SC-type hands OOP, but recognizing and handling these border cases well is what makes up the difference between +EV and spew.

    What is your plan on these turns?

    Am I snap-shoving-or-folding depending on villain if I am raised OTF?
    It seems hard to imagine this bet just getting called all that often...

    edit: actually, I hate 6d.
    Well, first of all this flop really exemplifies why calling pre is -EV. We get one of the very best flops we could hope for, but still don't like to put serious money in. It's just really difficult to play this hand OOP vs. multiple opponents.

    But since this is a PAHWM thread, it's not very constructive to just say "fold pre" and ignore the rest of the hand. For this reason, everything I say w/r/t postflop should be understood under the overall disclaimer "As played,...".

    I prefer leading this flop because
    - check-raising is overplaying the hand IMO (which could be discussed, but once the money goes in on the flop vs. one of three opponents, we are crushed)
    - check-calling leaves us in the dark and keeps the other players in, which we don't really want. Also, we are loosing so much value by not betting. There are a million worse hands that can call us (Tx, 6x, any spades, QJ, 9x, 8x, 87, etc...)
    - check-folding is not an option

    If I am called in one or two spots, I am probably firing any non-spade A,K,Q, 2,3,4, 9, 7. Depending on who is calling the flop and with which timing, I am also firing spades some of the time, because I can get value from hands like TT or A9 with one spade. (There are more such hands, like T9, K9, QJ, etc.)
    A diamond turn is probably a check-call or maybe in some cases could be a bet-call. And I am also bet/folding other cards, like an 8 or a 6. There are just so many other worse hands that we get value from.

    Also, I am not all that scared to get raised here. In a four-way-pot with this flop, it's really hard to get bluff raised, so it can't be a huge mistake to just bet-fold.
  • I check planning to
    - c/f or c/c a bet from UTG+1 (if he bets <~50 I can feel really good about c/c flop and c/f turn and possibly get a street of value OTR from his pair+draw-type hands),
    - c/r AI on MP
    - either c/r <AI or c/c and lead turn from either of the LP flatters depending on sizing.

    UTG (hero) - ~425
    UTG+1 (old guy, not very active) - 146
    MP (middle-aged middle-class white rec player, obv not used to having 1k in front of him) - covers
    CO (neck tattoos, waaaaay too loose pre facing aggression, ie limp-calling multiple 3-bets per orbit OOP) - ~400
    BTN (asian guy, just gambling, saw him flat closing the action with the nut straigth to scoop a 4-handed SD) - ~600

    (7) - Hero straddles to $4, UTG+1 limps, MP raises to 17, CO calls 17, BTN calls 17, hero calls 17 w/ 9d7d, UTG+1 calls

    (81) - 9s8d7s - hero checks, UTG+1 bets 129 and is all in, BTN calls 129, hero?
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