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Tricky spot in large 5/10 pot

jeffreyneuman Posts: 19Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Yesterday 5/10 NL , table even mix of professionals & recreational players , pre flop UTG +1 recreational player opens to 40 ( standard ) three more callers I have 5d6c on BTN and call , SB folds BB completes . Pot is 245 , 6 players I have about 1850 and am covered by all except original raiser who has about 700 left , flop Js , 5s , 5c initially thrilled with this flop for obvious reasons , Flop action BB checks , initial raiser bets 185 , then three more players call the 185 , this is very unusual flop action , the first caller on the flop is a very tight young professional so I know he has a hand , second caller is a recreational player , third caller is a LAG professional his range is much wider than the tighter young pro . Really only a spade draw on the flop so ranges here could be over pairs , even some mid pairs like pocket Tens , hands with a Jack , hands containing the case 5 etc , was hard for to me to really narrow the ranges , given this info I really was not sure what to do on the flop , think my hand is to strong to fold , can't raise with out committing my stack and feel like some one could easily have pocket JJ or a bigger 5 so shoving seems out of the Question but want to fold out the spade draws & take the pot down . Really want to shove , feel like its very possible the initial raiser or other recreational player might call with over pair or draw but would know I am beat if either of the pros call . Tank & eventually feel like shoving would be a over play , and would probably only get called if I was beat so decide to flat in position & evaluate turn action . Is this the best play ?

Comments

  • eselspiel Posts: 115Subscriber
    I don't think shoving here is all that bad of a play, but you probably won't be called by worse.
    1. From your desciption, it doesn't seem like these players would slow play pocket jacks preflop.
    2. There is only on combo of A5 left which seems like the only reasonable hand out there to beat you.
    3. Collectively, against KsQs, AcJd, and 77and T9o, your equity is about 50%.
    4. You might get a crying call from the preflop raiser with a weak hand while getting the other to fold.
    5. There are very few cards you'd be happy to see on the turn.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Well I think there are a number of different lines.. I am sure there is at least one person in the field that has a flush draw. Because the preflop raiser bet into this number of players they have at least AJ+ I think.. Now given the flop is J55 I think your nightmare scenario is A5 suited.. since the 5s are clubs and spades that leaves only one combo since you have the d.. so they have A5 hearts or some randon A5. now they could have 45 hearts and 65 hearts and you lose to 75 hearts.. any other suited heart with a 5 is unlikely.. Gee look at that .. A5 and 75 are the only 5s you lose to..

    Now this is a decision you have to make whether you are willing to go all in if you raise.. Can you raise fold to a backraise all in? I say yes.. So why not make it like $800? I think if someone then goes all in from the field and they are the tight player, you fold and if they are the loose player you call? Is the loose player playing a 5 as a call on the flop? I doubt it, but I can see the tight player slowplaying ready to raise on the turn..

    Now if you don't like this line, then call and play in position. I will almost guarantee that if anyone has a 5 or is filled up they will let you know on the turn.. but I hate giving free cards with the draw out there...I guess thats why I generally wouldnt play 65 os for a raise.. but then I am a Nit.. lol..


    Wendy
  • JamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    Do you guys think a shove here will look bluffy? I think there's a chance he would get called by the 2nd last or last caller, depending on what they have. I'm not sure the guy up front would call with say AA/KK etc because he's not sure what the people behind him will do, but for the last guys to call, there won't be anyone behind them so they might be willing to call light putting you on some kind of flush draw, or you're trying to "protect" with AJ.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    JamesSuh said

    Do you guys think a shove here will look bluffy? I think there's a chance he would get called by the 2nd last or last caller, depending on what they have. I'm not sure the guy up front would call with say AA/KK etc because he's not sure what the people behind him will do, but for the last guys to call, there won't be anyone behind them so they might be willing to call light putting you on some kind of flush draw, or you're trying to "protect" with AJ.
    this is so player dependent. I have seen fish call of w aces and i have seen uber nits call down w js full. You just need to player type and then make the best judgement you can. If he flats and the flush comes in he might have to fold what could be the best hand. but if he plays it fast his kicker isnt so good and could find hi self drawing dead. each has its pros and cons.

    this is one of the most difficult spots to be in too good to fold but could also be drawing dead. thats why we play this game. let us know what happened?
  • JamesSuh Posts: 320Subscriber
    There's still one out to quads against JJ Wink
    wendyweissman said
    JamesSuh said

    Do you guys think a shove here will look bluffy? I think there's a chance he would get called by the 2nd last or last caller, depending on what they have. I'm not sure the guy up front would call with say AA/KK etc because he's not sure what the people behind him will do, but for the last guys to call, there won't be anyone behind them so they might be willing to call light putting you on some kind of flush draw, or you're trying to "protect" with AJ.
    this is so player dependent. I have seen fish call of w aces and i have seen uber nits call down w js full. You just need to player type and then make the best judgement you can. If he flats and the flush comes in he might have to fold what could be the best hand. but if he plays it fast his kicker isnt so good and could find hi self drawing dead. each has its pros and cons.

    this is one of the most difficult spots to be in too good to fold but could also be drawing dead. thats why we play this game. let us know what happened?
  • I dont mind calling to see what happens. Seems like I am most concerned with that tight pro UTG +1. Looks a lot like AQ, AKss or JJ. You also want to know what the other guys have in between. I dont think you really need to protect anything and you get a ton of information by seeing what happens on the turn. For example if 1st guy bets again, and 2nd folds and somebody in between moves in its almost guaranteed that they have a 5 or if 1st and 2nd guy both check and someone bombs still looks very much like a 5. I definitely think you want to think of protecting your stack here instead of your hand equity.

    Bart
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    awkward spot for sure.
    outside of having some maniacal image, I can't see getting called by much worse, except the flush draws; and, in principle we do want them to call, and not 'push them out', so long as we raise enough to force them to make a mistake.
    all the action on the flop means the pot is bloated to the point that we would need to raise pretty big to have them call incorrectly with a FD.
    seeing as the flop is paired, many competent players arent continuing here w/ a FD anyways when you pop it, so a flat call is reasonable,
    and if the flush comes in, and theres action ahead of us, it's a pretty easy fold, since we arent beating much at that point.

    This hand demonstrates how important position is; can you imagine playing this hand OOP??
    it also demonstrates how weak weak values are. we flopped just about as good as we could hope for, and still have to walk on egg shells.
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