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Check raise field bettor gone bad. too short stack?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
As I have posted a little before I am ramping up my aggressive due to my naturally tight image. Question for the forum how short is too short to try a raise with a draw?

2/3 100-300 buy in.

V1- $300 Original raiser is tight fit or fold and has 300 behind and raises to 10
V2- $125-140 Been playing fairly tight , but is a younger guy in LA from vegas doing a poker room tour with his buddy who is also at my table
Hero-300 I have a tight image but I have been aggressive but so far no one has seen my bluffs or barrels.. I have thin value betted two players who called with tp when I had KQ on a Q high board . thats it.. other than this I have been card dead or have had to fold good hands pre like JJ or QQ to a lot of pressure ..

V1 raises to 10 V2 calls I call from sb with JT spades.. Pot $30.

Flop is Q 9 5 rainbow..

I check preflop raiser checks and now V2 bets $25 dollars on the button. I could hear Bart screaming in my head this is a perfect spot to raise on my draw because the field bettor could have pretty weak hands.. I raise to 80.. and V2 snap goes all in.. shit.. I have to call and I do..

What do you think he has and my main question is maybe he doesnt have enough money behind to fold.. although my raise was basically an all in for him which was what I was thinking. But.. I am wondering if someone is going to just go for it with say just a Q in this spot because he doesnt need to worry about losing more money..

thoughts?

ww

Comments

  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    In my experience a young guy with a short stack is probably going to go with any Q here. I think there are definitely stack size implications with this move; a lot of the pressure applied isn't just the flop raise, it's the threat that you'll bomb the turn and make them play for 100BBs+ with a hand that is marginal at best for that size pot. There isn't that kind of pressure when he's only playing for 40BBs, so villains are probably going to fold a lot less.
  • JohnHashem Posts: 24Subscriber
    If he is half stacking, he probably isn't playing tricky poker that you can exploit by raising his c bet when the pfr checks first. Not only does it suck semi-bluffing a short stacker because of annoying spots like the one you are in, but also, they are going to 3betAI so much wider than the 3 betting we would get from a 150 bb stack. With those 3 conceps (half stacker prob not playing tricky + half stackers are very hard to semi-bluff + forced to call when shoved on) I would get rid of this line in this spot in the future.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    JohnHashem said

    If he is half stacking, he probably isn't playing tricky poker that you can exploit by raising his c bet when the pfr checks first. Not only does it suck semi-bluffing a short stacker because of annoying spots like the one you are in, but also, they are going to 3betAI so much wider than the 3 betting we would get from a 150 bb stack. With those 3 conceps (half stacker prob not playing tricky + half stackers are very hard to semi-bluff + forced to call when shoved on) I would get rid of this line in this spot in the future.
    I was getting the right odds after his shove.. but it did get me thinking.. V2 didnt buy in short he just never topped off after losing AA against another player a while earlier..

    ww
  • 3-bet or fold pre, I hate this hand with these stacks.

    You make too many bad top pairs that end up paying off if flop checks through and there are a lot of flops where you have a lot of equity against ranges but if you play aggressively you're just getting it in bad but if you c/c you have no implied odds because everyone who flats from the blinds and c/c flop has JTs just like the pfr always has AK.

    Wow, that was a really poorly written sentence.

    re: the flop, yeah, he always has at least a Q and is calling

    Man, I can't believe you west coasters play these tiny cap games with a drop, esp when the 5/5 3-1000 is one of the best structures around.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    staaa

    I would much rather work on my game cheaply rather than making mistakes when it might cost me 1000 bucks instead of 150.. Also I am currently NOT trying to make a living at poker but still would like to improve my game..

    The bike is now spreading a 3-5 200-500 game that sometimes is quite juicy and I have been playing that game. The deeper game is just filled with players making a living at poker whereas the smaller game doesnt.

    hows that for a sentence! he he

    wendy
  • I understand and meant no offense, it's just that the overly aggressive rake structure severely handicaps your ability to get into interesting situations.

    Professional players shouldn't be scary, in fact at the higher levels (5/5 is still the highish end of low stakes and the only difference between the rec players at that level and the 2/3 level is how much disposable income they have) players are a lot more likely to employ a strategy that is consistent and therefore exploitable in ways other than the standard play tight pre, value bet a lot, don't go broke in a limped pot, etc. maxims that will earn you $2/hr and the casino $125/hr. Imo that's where any part of poker worth actually talking about starts.

    Players who don't think about the game think they are good or don't think poker is something you can be good at, regardless of stake.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

    If you halve the effective rake, you add almost 3BB/hr directly into your pocket. But in fact the effect is more pronounced: consider the situation of a single limper, the SB completing, and the BB checking. At 2/3 the pot OTF is $4, or 4/9 of the original pot. At 5/5 in this situation the pot is 2/3 of what it was pre. This makes a pretty big difference.

    With a 5x standard open and most pots going mw, a hand w/ 100BB effective is more like a real hand with 20-40bb effective since you will normally have at most two postflop bets.

    All that said, big bet poker w/ less than 250bb is not a large enough game to be interesting unless you have the opportunity to actually explore someones strategy and find specific leaks, which is just not the case given reasonable time spans playing 25-35 hands/hr instead of 500-1k+

    tl;dr if you can break even in 2/3 you can beat 5/5 and regardless of how much "a mistake" will cost you the biggest mistake is letting half a maxbuy get raked off the table every hour instead of half a minbuy. If your goal is to get better you should move out of the lowest buyin tier as soon as possible.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Believe me I completely understand what you are saying..

    that said there are other considerations for me than just win rate. I have been pretty depressed over the last few years, in part due to poker in part due to my health. Finally got my knee fixed and my attitude is alot better and when I lose big pots I tend to go on life tilt and get very upset.. So I play smaller in LA and allow myself some fun when I am out of town, which is like every two weeks these days. Seems to be a good plan for the time being..

    I am really looking forward to the wsop this year.. Big O , O8 and some NLHE are in my sights for sure..

    One thing I can say is I do agree that alot of the strategy that Bart discusses isnt as applicable at the games where the buy in is 100bb or less.

    Wendy Wink
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