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Can we ever fold a back door flush in an MTT?

DanNatarelli Posts: 2Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hey all. This hand happened at the WOG Bike ME ($345) buy in. We were in about the 6th or 7th level.

Villain stack was 60k (75bb)
My stack was 80k (100bb)

I was still on my starting table and after the early craziness stopped, the table started playing tight so I opened up and started raising all hands in late position. I had gotten a lot of calls from one of the blinds but usually my C bet took it down. I was chipping up nicely.

It folded to me in the CO and I had 56ss. Blinds were 400/800/100 I raised to 1700 (my normal raise at this level) and the villain in the BB called. He was def a recreational player that had played ABC poker the whole day. Pot was 4800 after antes.

Flop was AsTh5d.

He checked, I bet 2200 and he called. Pot was now 9600.

Turn was 3s. I picked up a BD flush draw.

He checked again and I bet a little smaller in case he check raised I didn't want to get completely blown off the hand. I bet 3100. He tank called. Pot was now 15,800.

River was the 7s. Bingo. Made the BD flush.

On the river he led for 15k. Wow. Didn't expect that.

So listening to Bart and knowing that no rec player is ever going to c/c pre, c/c flop, c/c turn, bomb river with a bluff, what do you do here? We all know he took an extremely strong line with no bluffs in his range, can we fold in this spot?

Thanks for the help and have a great night.


  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    - I so it few times when a weak player slowplays big hand 2pair+ to the river and then bombs it when he got scared of flush card coming in. Makes no sense I know but for some reason people do it.
    - Most likely you lose to TsXs.
    - It's ok to check turn back. You don't have to bet.
    - It's a bad habit to vary your betsizes according to your hand strength.
  • DanNatarelli Posts: 2Member
    Thanks. I have seen this line taken with sets also which I think is so bad but they are rec players so anything is possible.

    I agree with the sizing comment. I def would try not to vary it vs good players but I do it sometimes vs bad players. I shouldn't do it ever so I don't delvelop the bad habit like you said.

    Lastly, I should have worded my question different to:

    What would you do on the river: Call, Raise, or Fold?

    Thanks again for your input and have a great night.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am calling the river (since he could be playing worse hands for value like this), but I am not excited about it.
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    -I think checking back the turn is OK here. You have some (albeit not much) showdown value with your tiny pair.

    -Unless I'm adding wrong, if you call and lose you'll still have 75BB, which is definitely not terrible, especially considering the dynamics you described.

    -In the same vein, you've committed less than 10BB so far, so folding isn't horrible.

    -On the flip side, I don't see very man recreational players tank calling with a hand as "strong" as a pair+flush draw. I discount this hand a lot (10cxc) because he didn't c/r the turn or snap call the turn. He might tank call with a dry flush draw, but which dry flush draw can he have? If he plays ABC, he's probably not calling K9 suited OOP. Any other Kx spade draw is a gutter on the flop, and a gutter+flush draw on the turn, so, again, I would not expect a tank-call.

    -On balance, I think I'd call. As whatsyourplay? said, I'd call, but I'm not thrilled.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,077AdministratorLeadPro
    Hey Dan,

    Thanks for posting this here. Its always nice to run into you in the casino as you are one of the nice guys in the game. I'm working on that Seat Open apparel and believe me if they can do it I'll have some 3x Tshirts for you :)

    On the turn I am probably betting more---something like 6K specifically to fold out this guys Ts--I'm not really worried about being crasied as I feel there are very few hands that are slowplaying since you hold a blocker to 55, AT is likely to check raise flop and AA, TT and AK are probable 3 bets preflop.. If he does check raise large with a 6K sizing its a pretty easy fold as you probably can only peel a spade to be good.

    River is tough. I think you have enough chips to call. Its so often that these recreational players (most of which playing this tourney can't even beat a $1-2 game) spaz and do something very stupid. Shorter its close, especially facing an all in. But I cant fold getting 2-1 vs this player profile. You'll get shown Ts xs, KsQs, KsJs and QsJs a fair amount but probably less than 1/3 of the time.

  • Hey Bart,

    I"m curious why you recommend firing a second bullet on the turn. If hero is raising from late position a lot of the time and firing c-bets at a high percentage, I don't think the villain is going to fold any ace to a second barrel. A second bullet might get him off a 10,. Hero probably has to fire a 3rd bullet on the river if we want him to fold AJ or worse top pair hands.

    On the flop it's easy to fold to a check raise since hero only has bottom apair. On the turn, he has a chance to hit a disguised monster, so folding to a check-raise is more costly.

    The other reason to check back the turn is that hero seems to be at a pretty soft table. He has been picking up chips without much resistance. I would recommend keeping the pot small and waiting for a better spot.

    As played I would call the river. Villain might also have a flush (probably with the 10s), but he could also be value betting aces up.
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