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2/5nl KK OOP Deep

Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$1500 effective

Villain- Young, white kid, 20's. Seems to be competent from what i have seen so far. Playing TAG. Has accumulated over $3,000. Says he has been at the table for 18+ hours. Sitting directly to my left, chatted him up a little, def a thinking player.

Folds to Hero UTG+2 with KK opens to $25.
Villain 3bets to $75
Folds back to Hero who thinks for a minute and calls.

($150) 10 5 2 rainbow
Hero checks
Villian bet $100
Hero Calls

($350) As brings back door flush
Hero checks
Villain snap bets $200
Hero Calls

($750)Qd
Hero?

Basically I am wondering if turning my hand into a bluff on this river is best since it will fold out everything except AA and QQ. He bet the turn so fast that it was like he had already decided he was going to do it no matter what and i thought KK was still going to be best a solid amount of the time. So anyway, is this just a check/fold or is there something more optimal?

Comments

  • jeffreyneuman Posts: 19Member
    What do you think his 3 betting range is pre flop ? Because your deep stacked could he be three betting to isolate you and play the pot in position with a wider range than one might expect ? In my opinion your hand is under represented and it may look from his perspective that the Ace on the turn is a perfect card to barrel . That being said I don't think you should lead river , what worse hands would call or better hands fold to a bet in this spot ? I don't think he is folding AK , AQ, or AJ given the action , and he his most likely checking back JJ and other paired hands you beat . Given the way the hand has been played I do think check /folding is optimal without history that he could be 3 betting light .
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    jeffreyneuman said

    What do you think his 3 betting range is pre flop ? Because your deep stacked could he be three betting to isolate you and play the pot in position with a wider range than one might expect ? In my opinion your hand is under represented and it may look from his perspective that the Ace on the turn is a perfect card to barrel . That being said I don't think you should lead river , what worse hands would call or better hands fold to a bet in this spot ? I don't think he is folding AK , AQ, or AJ given the action , and he his most likely checking back JJ and other paired hands you beat . Given the way the hand has been played I do think check /folding is optimal without history that he could be 3 betting light .
    I agree his snap bet looks like someone trying to represent the ace.. If thats true I would just call again and call on the river.. I think its an overplay to raise or lead for that matter..

    wendy
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    jeffreyneuman said

    What do you think his 3 betting range is pre flop ? Because your deep stacked could he be three betting to isolate you and play the pot in position with a wider range than one might expect ? In my opinion your hand is under represented and it may look from his perspective that the Ace on the turn is a perfect card to barrel . That being said I don't think you should lead river , what worse hands would call or better hands fold to a bet in this spot ? I don't think he is folding AK , AQ, or AJ given the action , and he his most likely checking back JJ and other paired hands you beat . Given the way the hand has been played I do think check /folding is optimal without history that he could be 3 betting light .
    Yes, I think his 3 betting range is wider than the norm and thats why i just flatted pre. I was expecting him to own himself a large percentage of the time as well as barrel multiple streets.

    Well, once i call the turn i am announcing that i have a pretty good hand right? So if i were to lead the river after check/calling two streets in a 3 bet pot...wouldnt he have to fold everything except the very top of his range? This could obv be way too optomistic and i am just trying to see what others think about it.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    wendyweissman said
    jeffreyneuman said

    What do you think his 3 betting range is pre flop ? Because your deep stacked could he be three betting to isolate you and play the pot in position with a wider range than one might expect ? In my opinion your hand is under represented and it may look from his perspective that the Ace on the turn is a perfect card to barrel . That being said I don't think you should lead river , what worse hands would call or better hands fold to a bet in this spot ? I don't think he is folding AK , AQ, or AJ given the action , and he his most likely checking back JJ and other paired hands you beat . Given the way the hand has been played I do think check /folding is optimal without history that he could be 3 betting light .
    I agree his snap bet looks like someone trying to represent the ace.. If thats true I would just call again and call on the river.. I think its an overplay to raise or lead for that matter..

    wendy
    I am a little surprised to hear you think the river is a check/call? If he 3 bets pre and then bets all three streets you still think there are enough bluffs in his range to call the river?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    JonMcFarland said
    wendyweissman said
    jeffreyneuman said

    What do you think his 3 betting range is pre flop ? Because your deep stacked could he be three betting to isolate you and play the pot in position with a wider range than one might expect ? In my opinion your hand is under represented and it may look from his perspective that the Ace on the turn is a perfect card to barrel . That being said I don't think you should lead river , what worse hands would call or better hands fold to a bet in this spot ? I don't think he is folding AK , AQ, or AJ given the action , and he his most likely checking back JJ and other paired hands you beat . Given the way the hand has been played I do think check /folding is optimal without history that he could be 3 betting light .
    I agree his snap bet looks like someone trying to represent the ace.. If thats true I would just call again and call on the river.. I think its an overplay to raise or lead for that matter..

    wendy
    I am a little surprised to hear you think the river is a check/call? If he 3 bets pre and then bets all three streets you still think there are enough bluffs in his range to call the river?
    So I think a check call line is good for a number of reasons:

    1) You will value own them... they will think you have a much weaker hand than KK

    2) If they are bluffing they will continue to bluff trying to get you off an imaginary hand that they can beat.. like AK

    3) If they have AK, hit a hand like two pair or a set you will lose the least given this line..

    I think the value own line is biggest and if you lead river to someone who is a thinking player they might fold a worse hand or raise or worse if they are capable of bluff raising then what?

    Now if they arent capable of three barrels then I still like the check call because of the A on board. Most players still have a narrow range with a three bet pot and given he seems like a competent player he will either represent the ace or he has an ace.. This is a read dependent situation.. Over the last couple of months its been really hard to NOT raise with AA but having villain value own themselves with as little as top pair has made me alot of money. You were deeper but with the Ace on board all you have is a bluff catcher basically and so I would bluff catch with a player who seems to understand bluffing..

    Wendy
  • jeffreyneuman Posts: 19Member
    Jon , what he should do & what he eventually does are two completely different things , I agree your hand would look strong but if his light 3 betting range is something like A10+, K10+, QJ , J10s+ , 77+ , and a bunch of random suited connectors say 67s+ , your really only folding out his bluffs & hands he is looking to showdown cheap like JJ or 99 . By this time he has invested a lot in the pot , he might have AA that ran into a set but 1/2 of his Ace high hands have made two pair and most players are going to have a real hard time folding TPTK ( AK ) , that leaves AJ which maybe , maybe , he can fold . It's possible but not probable in my opinion that he three barrel bluffs you with his junk hands , his 200 snap bet is a little suspicious and small if he has a real strong value hand he wants to get all in by the river . I think he checks back the river a lot . We make money because other players make mistakes , the biggest mistake most players make is they call to much , a large part of both his value and light three betting range is Aces , I wouldn't give him the chance to make a hero call with a hand he might check back .
  • Why not 4bet pre?
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