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Am I running bad in PLO, or do I just suck?

UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
A few hands from a frustrating session 2/5 PLO. I never even knew it was possible to lose this much without getting stacks in and losing a few big all-ins. I ended up folding in all of these spots.

3 limpers, I limp CO with Jc9s8s7c
Flop 8c6c4h
BB checks, guy in EP pots, loose donk calls in middle, I repot, decent player calls
Turn 3c
Villain says "pot"
Why couldn't I hit a nut straight instead of the J high flush and get bet into? Fold


6 limpers, I check BB with garbage 8h6d3c2c
8d 8h 6s flop
I bet $30
One caller
Young guy who has been uber tight post-flop says "pot" in LP
I fold because he probably has the same hand but with two higher cards. If I continue, I'll have no idea which over cards give him a higher full house


I raise to $20 UTG with KsKhQhJs
UTG+1 calls
SB who has never 3-bet before says "pot" which made it $70 or so
Both me and UTG+1 call
AK7dd flop
SB instantly pots
I fold because I'm afraid of a set of Aces

3 limpers, I raise button to $30 with AhJdTh8c
All 3 limpers call
KsQs2d flop
Younger guy from hand 2 bets $100
Fish in middle calls
I call
Turn 4d
Younger guy pots
Fish calls
I call
River completes backdoor flush
Younger guy checks, fish bets, and we both fold
I actually thought even the turn might be a fold because the guy who has been betting could be freerolling me. But the fish could have been calling with something stupid and contributing dead money to the pot, so I decided to continue and hope for a blank river.


Hand 1 shows that even if I hit my draw, I fold anyway
Hand 2 shows that when I flop the nuts, I'm still not happy
Hand 3 shows that I'm always afraid of the nuts
Hand 4 is kind of like hand 2 in that I'm afraid of getting freerolled, so I try to pot control instead of raise when I flop the nuts
Is there something wrong with my fundamental understanding of this game or is this a form of running bad?

Comments

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Claire said

    A few hands from a frustrating session 2/5 PLO. I never even knew it was possible to lose this much without getting stacks in and losing a few big all-ins. I ended up folding in all of these spots.

    3 limpers, I limp CO with Jc9s8s7c
    Flop 8c6c4h
    BB checks, guy in EP pots, loose donk calls in middle, I repot, decent player calls
    Turn 3c
    Villain says "pot"
    Why couldn't I hit a nut straight instead of the J high flush and get bet into? Fold


    6 limpers, I check BB with garbage 8h6d3c2c
    8d 8h 6s flop
    I bet $30
    One caller
    Young guy who has been uber tight post-flop says "pot" in LP
    I fold because he probably has the same hand but with two higher cards. If I continue, I'll have no idea which over cards give him a higher full house


    I raise to $20 UTG with KsKhQhJs
    UTG+1 calls
    SB who has never 3-bet before says "pot" which made it $70 or so
    Both me and UTG+1 call
    AK7dd flop
    SB instantly pots
    I fold because I'm afraid of a set of Aces

    3 limpers, I raise button to $30 with AhJdTh8c
    All 3 limpers call
    KsQs2d flop
    Younger guy from hand 2 bets $100
    Fish in middle calls
    I call
    Turn 4d
    Younger guy pots
    Fish calls
    I call
    River completes backdoor flush
    Younger guy checks, fish bets, and we both fold
    I actually thought even the turn might be a fold because the guy who has been betting could be freerolling me. But the fish could have been calling with something stupid and contributing dead money to the pot, so I decided to continue and hope for a blank river.


    Hand 1 shows that even if I hit my draw, I fold anyway
    Hand 2 shows that when I flop the nuts, I'm still not happy
    Hand 3 shows that I'm always afraid of the nuts
    Hand 4 is kind of like hand 2 in that I'm afraid of getting freerolled, so I try to pot control instead of raise when I flop the nuts
    Is there something wrong with my fundamental understanding of this game or is this a form of running bad?
    i just got back from a plo binge in vegas last night and i ran pretty f'ing bad too. amazing the variance in this game. while i'm watching my friend get paid off when guys ship their stacks against his pot sized turn bets drawing dead (literally dead against his straight -- the guy had a pair a gutter to a worse straight!!), i'm two seats over losing with full houses like it's my job. losing with K FDs+wrap/SD two out of three hands to the same lady vs her AA+NFD, and actually making the flush both hands. i doubled her up twice in 3 hands like that. of course when i call off my stack getting 5:1 with the NFD+SD, i brick brick every time.

    then i get it in three ways with top set on J72ss vs NFD+pair of 7s, and 222+Q FD. and turn and river both come spades.

    anyway.......

    hand 1:
    strong flop for you, but when EP decent players pot, so many times it is NFD with something else. i would not repot the flop, but just call. good fold on the turn. in small-mid stakes plo, you don't have fold equity -- so there's no need to repot flop. remember that, you very rarely have fold equity. you must make hands. bet and raise for value, and/or to get stacks in on a big draw (with nut potential).

    hand 2:
    depending on stack depth, i'm probably re-potting / getting it in here. yes, it is true that you cannot improve, but you are either a 2:1 favorite if he has 3 high cards with an 8 (he has 9 outs), or he could be free-rolling with 86xx with 6 potential outs to beat you. combinatorics-wise, there is such a small chance he flopped the same boat as you with a free roll, and is much more likely that he has something like AQJ8.

    hand 3:
    SB's 3bet should be $85, right? anyway, i played almost this same hand recently and snap folded to the villian's pot lead on the same flop: AK9, where i had a set of Ks. i showed a friend of mine next to me (who is mostly a holdem player) and he gawked and gulped and said wtf, i'm glad i'm not getting your cards. villian showed AAA when the pot was pushed. this seems like a pretty easy fold when people suddenly wake up with "Pot!" (which is very often the nuts in small - mid stakes plo). you have no redraw and it's typically not very good to get stacks in with 1 out.

    hand 4:
    i might call one time on the flop, again depending on stack depth a bit. but when the turn brings a second flush draw that i don't have, i'm not calling, especially when there are two opponents. what do you if the river comes As, Ad, Js, Ts, Td and someone bets into you? in a 3 way pot, you could easily be up against the made nuts (KKK, QQQ), and one or two flush draws. also, it is pretty likely that some of your outs are held by the villian(s) in a three way pot. snap fold the turn and feel good about it. think about calling with position on the turn if a second flush draw doesn't show up, but still, many of your outs are tainted. the good part about this hand is that you have position, that's primarily why i'm calling the flop.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire

    I cant comment on the run bad. I think you are overestimating a little of your opponents ranges.. Also with PLO getting it in with a wrap is kinda standard operating proceedure. I am NOT a plo expert but here is my take on your 4 hands...

    Hand 1 Good fold. When someone pots and you dont have the nuts its probably not good

    Hand 2. I dont like your fold here. Yes he could have overs but I see players go all in with just an 8 in that spot. Or even better with 66xx.. Even if they had overs thats just 6 outs with two cards to come. I think you are 75% to win. Getting it in that good in PLO is what you want..

    Hand 3. I think you are correct. If someone who never 3 bets with anything other than AAxx I think you made a good fold. If you had other outs like a oesd or some flush draws it might be worth a peel..

    Hand 4 I think with the wrap I am repotting and getting it in. Chilidog or Bart can let you know for sure about this.. but I am pretty sure you have at least 30% equity.. This hand I am most curious what they say because I could be very wrong.

    One thing to consider. In PLO players are STILL betting their made hands and NOT their equity. You should be betting your equity only..So in some spots you are checking the nuts because you can easily be outdrawn and in other spots you are going all in with nothing because you have so many outs to make the nuts..

    ww
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    hand 4 edit:
    consider potting / getting it in if the flop is: 1) heads up, or 2) flop is rainbow (or two hearts obv).
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    In hand 1, I was actually going to get it in on the flop. Have never seen such a monster draw, but yeah, my flush draw was probably dominated

    In hand 2, I think it was about $800 effective, and I thought the guy was good enough not to get it in with just trips. And even if he did just have trips, if I repot and continue, I still won't know which overcards are bad for me

    Crap, I convinced myself I had a straight in hand 4, or I probably wouldn't have called the turn
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Claire said

    Crap, I convinced myself I had a straight in hand 4, or I probably wouldn't have called the turn
    it's three from your hand and two on the board, right? wait....
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Claire said

    In hand 1, I was actually going to get it in on the flop. Have never seen such a monster draw, but yeah, my flush draw was probably dominated
    You only have 6 nut outs? Non-club 5's or T's. According to Jeff's book that's barely worth calling and re-potting is lighting money on fire IMO.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,072AdministratorLeadPro
    HAND1--

    This is exactly the spots I'm talking about when I discussed live PLO in the episode "A Little PLO" . Your hand is deceptively weak here especially when you are up against a probable made hand and a dominating draw. The only way that you can play this spot hard is if you think you can drive everyone out of the pot and get it HU with the 57. When a loosey goose calls in the middle, you pot, and another guy puts it in--that loosey goose will almost always call off with nut flush draw.

    HAND2--

    I'm not folding here. He could have 66 and being drawing dead a small part of the time but and most of the time he has an 8 with 3 live overs. Even if he does have 86 you need to only fade 6 outs to chop and it is worth it to continue on because of the weaker parts of his range.

    HAND3--

    This is most likely a fold against a tight player. Spot sucks but in reality the bottom part of his range, like <20% of the time, might be AKQJ, and if he has diamonds with it you are flipping vs the bottom part of his range. AAA has you basically drawing dead. Structured hand analysis dictates a fold.

    HAND4-- With the third player in the middle, I'm folding the turn. HU I am calling the turn and bluffing both the front and backdoor flush draws if we miss.

    Bart
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    Claire said
    3 limpers, I limp CO with Jc9s8s7c
    Flop 8c6c4h
    BB checks, guy in EP pots, loose donk calls in middle, I repot, decent player calls
    Turn 3c
    Villain says "pot"
    Why couldn't I hit a nut straight instead of the J high flush and get bet into? Fold
    -I'd probably raise this hand, especially in the cutoff. Even though the gap is at the top, it hits a lot of flops well.
    -I don't like the repot on the flop. You've basically got a naked open ender, which is pretty garbage in PLO. I think you should just fold. Yes, you have the flush draw, but if it hits and you get any action, you're probably beat (as you figured out when you folded turn). So you're really only drawing to 6 outs. 6 outs + PLO = trash. Fold flop.

    6 limpers, I check BB with garbage 8h6d3c2c
    8d 8h 6s flop
    I bet $30
    One caller
    Young guy who has been uber tight post-flop says "pot" in LP
    I fold because he probably has the same hand but with two higher cards. If I continue, I'll have no idea which over cards give him a higher full house
    MUBS - Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome. It's a common malady among PLO players. :-) Repot this all day.
    -There is only one 8 left in the deck, and 3 combos of 66, so he's combinatorically more likely to have 66.
    -Even if he has 8AKQ (worst case), you're still a 3-2 favorite. That's pretty good in PLO.
    -I've seen even "tight" players raise here with a hand like 5789, thinking that their wrap is probably good. Heck, I've even raise folded a flop in a spot like that (the villain's).
    -While it's true you don't want to get freerolled, combinatorically that's so unlikely here, you just have to go with it. Save your freeroll folds for straights.

    I raise to $20 UTG with KsKhQhJs
    UTG+1 calls
    SB who has never 3-bet before says "pot" which made it $70 or so
    Both me and UTG+1 call
    AK7dd flop
    SB instantly pots
    I fold because I'm afraid of a set of Aces
    -I'm not sure of the stack sizes (which make a difference here), but as played preflop, assuming they are under 100BB, I like a check-call flop and check any turn that's not a K or T, planning to fold to a pot bet, of course leading if we hit broadway or quads.
    -It's a reasonable fold on the flop, too, especially with shorter stacks. You'll run into all kinds of people that will only 3-bet AAxx, and they're very profitable to play against if they're deep.
    -For this reason, I like to 3-bet other hands and just call raises with aces when it's the right situtation. I can't tell you how many times I've stacked someone on an AT6 board when they have TT because I didn't 3-bet or backraise preflop.
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