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Flop bottom two get raised on flop

BlochNessMonster Posts: 11Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
8 handed game.

Villain- middle aged Canadian guy. Std old guy- bets when he has it, folds when he doesn't. Saw me call a large river bet w 88 on J9763 when field player chk called the turn and potted river. He had busted straight draw.
Hero- Playing a lot of hands in position, 3 bet a couple times so far. Havent been out of line at all at this point other than the 88 hand.

Utg limps
Villain (utg +1) raises to 20 (std open for this guy)
Hi jack calls
I call in sb with T8cc
Utg calls

Flop: Td8dQh

I lead for 50, villain makes it 125. Folds back to me.

What now?

Comments

  • BigOwl Posts: 80Member
    Why did you choose to lead out? As played I call and play turn. This board is super connected and not one that's gonna get checked through very often, so I like going for a check raise. But it's hard to say without some reads and stack sizes.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Heads up I think leading is generally good. I certainly wouldnt want to check raise this flop and get villain to fold.. or worse check and have villain check through..

    If villain is pretty standard then he could have AQ, KK, AA.. and thinks I have a Q.. He could also have a pair and a straight draw like QJ, etc.. But most players wouldnt raise that hand. He could also have a set.. So If I have T8 then its unlikely he has TT or 88 so QQ would really be the only set he could have..

    I would call and see what villain does on the turn. If I am deep enough I would probably call the turn too and check fold the river.. Most likely your turn call will get it to showdown.

    ww
  • BigOwl Posts: 80Member
    OK, but this isn't heads up, and if you're afraid of villain folding on a connected drawy, high card board like this, then when are you ever check raising? Like you said he could have AQ, KK, AA, and he is calling with all of those.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Sorry I thought it was heads up..

    regardless I am still betting out.. I just dont like check raising and getting someone with say a pair and a st draw to fold.. I think you get more value when you lead in this spot. I also think you get more information too.

    Scenario 1
    I lead OR raises and HJ ships it.. This is an easy fold..

    Scenario 2
    I check OR bets HJ three bets.. Now what? Do you call do you go all in? I think you are guessing alot more in this scenario..

    J9 isnt really in the OR range but it is in the others ranges.. just my opinion.. Smile
  • BigOwl Posts: 80Member
    Sorry didn't want it to sound like I was attacking :) I don't think leading out is bad, but like I said in my op we don't have enough info. Also on a board like this almost any scenario presents us with a tough decision. We lead he calls, a K, A, Q, J, or any diamond comes on turn, where are we now? By check raising we get calls from many worse hands, and if he does fold he may have had a ton of equity that we're not all that sad to get rid of. If it checks through while not what we're hoping for it also gives us a lot of info on what our opponents are holding.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Big Owl

    I didnt take it as you attacking so no worries there.

    I guess we will just have to disagree here.. If you wont lead with two pair do you ever lead with any hand? I just think it too likely that it might get checked through and if some scare card comes on the turn you have either lost the hand or lost any value you might get..

    ww
  • BigOwl Posts: 80Member
    Also I think this hand illustrates how hard it is to play oop with connectors, which, unless there is a really good reason I fold pre.
  • BlochNessMonster Posts: 11Member
    Ya I just read my hh and I forgot to say we are playing 110bbs effective. I was in a hurry writing this up this am.... Sorry!

    I think this is always a lead in a 4handed pot, more for value than anything else. When he raises my lead, this player is repping aq+ and nothing else. He's never opening J9 from up front... If he's got qq than so be it but I think we can find a fold based on lolive reads...

    So I 3bet him to 210 leaving me 290ish behind... Villain goes into the tank...

    Thoughts on sizing? I started teh hand w $560ish...
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Bloch

    If this guy is anything like a typical older guy he might find a fold to your bet three bet. I am more inclined to just call and let him try to "protect" his hand on the turn. You could then either check raise there to get it in or call again and lead river..

    ww
  • BlochNessMonster Posts: 11Member
    Normally I would just call in this spot but our hand is vulnerable vs overpairs and AdQd, so sometimes I feel ok about taking this pot down right here.
  • Fold pre OOP not getting the implied odds with a suited one gapper. As played, call his raise on the flop and see what he does on the turn. Shoving over him isn't terrible, either.
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