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live 1-3 PLO - in SB wiht AAQJ (ddxx)

CT Posts: 62Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Live PLO – 1-3
Typical buy in $300-$500
Game has typ mix of solid regs and some gamblers – but over all I think this is more about play and position, stacks than reads, etc – esp. at this low stakes

Hero – SB w/ $600+
MP – old reg, ok PLO player, but will gambol - $600
LP – solid reg, has been getting pounded, and short buy in - $300
Btn – older semi reg – poorer player of those in hand - $250
Limps to MP – raises to $12 , call , call, call to me in SB with Ax,Ad,Qd,J x – I Pot ~ $80
Call in 3 places – MP, LP and Btn as above
Pot - $320 +
Flop – K J 8 - rainbow (no diamonds)
I check – MP bets $200 – call, call to me in SB
Question
Do you check that flop w/ 3 callers? (I am assuming common leak is to overplay AA's vs too many)
If you bet it – are you getting it all in vs likely 3 others – assuming only MP has much more to put in pot, after flop bet ?
If checked – does the less than pot bet by MP induce a call ?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I think checking is fine.. This flop seems to me to hit pretty much most players calling ranges of your three bet. I think most players would assume you have AAxx and therefore with half your cards face up I wouldnt try to semi bluff this flop.

    Another consideration.. I know Bart has spoken about when deep it might not be a bad idea to just call the raise with AAxx in position. If you cant get close to 40-50% of your stack in preflop with AAxx then it might be better to play position and just call. You will lose the least and possible win more when players wont put you on AAxx because you called. Your raise to 80 isnt too bad though.. Its not like the raise was to 25 and you raised to like 150 ..

    since there are no diamonds and you just have a gutshot, I am going to fold to the 200 bet. This guy probably has at least KJ and maybe even a set.. If you had AAQT instead that would have made a big difference..

    ww
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Sometimes repotting AAxx is fine, but here you are OOP and have a well defined range of AAxx. People are generally not folding pre, so I typically play extremely tight from early position. I would probably rather repot with AQT9ds than AA. Yes your aces are pretty decent here, but the pair is almost a handicap since its so tough to improve AA, and you are only getting 1/7 of your stack in pre, which means you can't blindly stack off on the flop.

    As played, easy check fold.
  • CT Posts: 62Subscriber
    WW
    As I am in SB seems preferred line is to Pot bet, I see your point if in position

    How does this change if it's head up on flop with original raiser? We are both about $600 deep and... I check? If he bets 2/3 pot then ... Struck me as a weak bet (I know the outcome) feeler type bet ... Fold , call or pot and get it in?

    Are AA xx (even if strong xx )often overplayed? Just seems to me that is he case when playing shallow stack (100bb or less) PLO

    Thanks for comments
    CT
  • Flat pre. Snap fold flop.
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    While there are places to do it, I think this is a bad spot to 3-bet preflop. You're basically announcing your hand, and allowing your opponents to play more correctly against you. On the flop, it's definitely a check fold. You're going to run into KJ+ here most of the time, and more likely KK/JJ/88. Even a hand like KQJT is pretty bad for you - even getting 5:1.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    CT said

    WW
    As I am in SB seems preferred line is to Pot bet, I see your point if in position

    How does this change if it's head up on flop with original raiser? We are both about $600 deep and... I check? If he bets 2/3 pot then ... Struck me as a weak bet (I know the outcome) feeler type bet ... Fold , call or pot and get it in?

    Are AA xx (even if strong xx )often overplayed? Just seems to me that is he case when playing shallow stack (100bb or less) PLO

    Thanks for comments
    CT
    CT

    Limon talked a bunch on the dueces cracked podcasts about how the nuts change in PLO on every street and there arent any "thru tickets" ie there is no such hand in PLO that you can GIN preflop. So given the fact that PLO is a post flop nutty game why not just play post flop? As a hand reader you should be able to do a much better job than your opponents on range analysis and can play better accordingly.

    When you raise a hand and build a pot you are making the outcome a bit more luck based rather than skill based. Take the luck out of the equation as much as possible and make-strike that FORCE the other players to play post flop when you have the advantage.

    BTW... I think I read somewhere that something like 75% of hand are determined in PLO on the flop as apposed to 25% or 30% for holdem.. The FLOP and what comes after is so so much more important in PLO ..which is why you want to draw to the nuts and be in position.. otherwise keep the pot small..

    ww
  • Derek Posts: 44Subscriber
    I think being in the SB makes this just a call preflop.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,072AdministratorLeadPro
    Preflop this one is close with single suited, good aces. But once you see that action in front of you I don't like your equity in the hand at all once this fop comes out.
    You could likely be drawing almost stone cold dead to a T.


    Bart
  • CT Posts: 62Subscriber
    to conclude

    ...flop K- J - 8 rainbow
    I check
    MP bets 2/3 pot - $200 (still seems weak as I write it now)
    LP calls (nearly all in)
    Btn calls (all in)
    Hero - SB w/ what appears to be only a 10 to improve my hand - folds, confidently that I am beat / drawing way thin

    of course... 10 on the turn... brick river... LP shows Q-9 8 7 - for a scoop - the other 2 players had even worse

    I still like the fold...

    takeaways... 1) will look for a spot to flat w/ AAxx ... hoepfully in position. 2) the comment from LIMON regarding 75% on the flop in PLO - thanks
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    CT said

    to conclude

    ...flop K- J - 8 rainbow
    I check
    MP bets 2/3 pot - $200 (still seems weak as I write it now)
    LP calls (nearly all in)
    Btn calls (all in)
    Hero - SB w/ what appears to be only a 10 to improve my hand - folds, confidently that I am beat / drawing way thin

    of course... 10 on the turn... brick river... LP shows Q-9 8 7 - for a scoop - the other 2 players had even worse

    I still like the fold...

    takeaways... 1) will look for a spot to flat w/ AAxx ... hoepfully in position. 2) the comment from LIMON regarding 75% on the flop in PLO - thanks
    Wow...now you see why PLO can be so profitable.. You had two blockers to the nut straight and this guy is getting his whole stack in with a gutshot to the sucker straight. Now you see why having AAQT would have been so much better? With your wrap and blockers to the nuts you can feel alot more secure that its so much harder for anyone else to be drawing to broadway too.

    Did the donkey have any backdoor flush draws? Those can be quite important in PLO too..

    ww
  • CT Posts: 62Subscriber
    I agree AAQT would have been whole differ plan...

    The player that won.. Im pretty sure back door hearts, Ironically of the players at the table, he was one of the more compentant...but... I just see a lot - once lose a few buys in - they buy in short - shove and hope (at stacks get to this level = less than 100bb) plan

    Earlier I had another player berate my play when I pot in LP with A K 8 7 ssxx, and flop was 9-6-2 - he called my open, OOP with 9-6-3-2 and could not believe i drew out on him with my straight - cbet on flop / turn (straight hits) all in (we were each only about $250 deep at this time) - yes I agree PLO has been good
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