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Are players bet three betting draws?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Here is an example of a hand I played that I think should have gotten away from

Its limped around by 4 players I have A2 hearts on the button and I overcall. blinds check their action in a 5/5 game. effective stacks are 750.

Flop comes Aj2 with two spades.. player in ep bets 30.. I raise to 100.. he thinks then raises to 250.. I look at the board and I am trying to think what he could have.. J2 AJ are not in his range because he would have raised. So its either a flush combo draw or 22.. but how can he have 22 when I have a 2..

Is my thinking wrong here? If he is on a combo draw dont I have to get it in to charge him? I am ahead with 2 pair..

Wendy

Comments

  • styx Posts: 33Subscriber
    In my player pool all the players who would bet/3bet a combo draw are also aggressive pre-flop and wouldn't limp, especially in early position. Also they would 3b bigger, since a semi-bluff needs fold equity.

    Some (often older) players limp AK and might play like that against me specifically because i tend to play my draws aggressively.

    Overall this is (as usual in live play) very player dependent in my opinion. You should also be aware of your image in your opponents eyes, does he think you have a lot more draws than value hands in your range? I don't know you, but many men think that women play tight and passive and rarely bluff (or semi-bluff). This could mean that his range is weighted towards made hands, usually better than yours.
  • bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    Thehammah said

    Here is an example of a hand I played that I think should have gotten away from

    Its limped around by 4 players I have A2 hearts on the button and I overcall. blinds check their action in a 5/5 game. effective stacks are 750.

    Flop comes Aj2 with two spades.. player in ep bets 30.. I raise to 100.. he thinks then raises to 250.. I look at the board and I am trying to think what he could have.. J2 AJ are not in his range because he would have raised. So its either a flush combo draw or 22.. but how can he have 22 when I have a 2..

    Is my thinking wrong here? If he is on a combo draw dont I have to get it in to charge him? I am ahead with 2 pair..

    Wendy
    I think in a vacuum, the majority of players aren't going to bet/3bet combo draws as much as I, and others, like to think they would live. I think while AJ would usually be a raise I wouldn't completely count it out of his range. It is also possible he's utg limping huge hands in order to 3bet pre but given the fact you have an ace its pretty hard for him to have a set(I don't think JJ would limp pre because most people spaz out with JJ because they are afraid of overcards flopping). Even if I think bet/3betting draws is rare, with your holdings, the preflop action, and the board; I would have a hard time getting away from this hand(especially if the non spade card was the A or the J.
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I'd lean towards a fold against anyone but the most aggressive maniacs.

    Even if I, Claire (who is capable of doing this with a draw sometimes), am the villain in this example, and actually capable of 3-betting the flop with a draw, it's still more of a fold than a call for the reason that when you're behind you're drawing nearly dead and the times you're ahead you're not a huge favorite. So against an aggregate range of AJ+ and good draws, you're behind. Capable of 3-betting flop with a draw doesn't mean this villain is doing it 100% of the time he has a draw.

    If you're not sure and can't decide whether someone might be overplaying AK, then call flop and fold to a sizable turn bet.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    I'd lean towards a fold against anyone but the most aggressive maniacs.

    Even if I, Claire (who is capable of doing this with a draw sometimes), am the villain in this example, and actually capable of 3-betting the flop with a draw, it's still more of a fold than a call for the reason that when you're behind you're drawing nearly dead and the times you're ahead you're not a huge favorite. So against an aggregate range of AJ+ and good draws, you're behind. Capable of 3-betting flop with a draw doesn't mean this villain is doing it 100% of the time he has a draw.

    If you're not sure and can't decide whether someone might be overplaying AK, then call flop and fold to a sizable turn bet.
    This particular villain didnt have AK or AJ.. so it was really either 22 (and I have a 2) or a combo draw.. So I checked my equity against the range of 22, A2, QTs and KTs and I am 2:1 dog.. Didnt think it would be that bad.. Once I realized to have a combo draw is only 2 combos.. QT s and KTs.. Wow did I get it in badly!

    Even if I add J2 s say one combo I am still a 65 to 35 dog..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I can't find the article right now. Maybe it was in a book. I think it was Phil Gordon...

    But anyway,
    He wrote a piece on a famous nosebleeds player who experimented with shoving all-in on the flop, even when deep and as a massive overbet with any 8 out draw or better, so open ended straight draws or flush draw, but also with sets.

    But against his range, you can't call with something like top and bottom pair, because you'll either have about ~65% equity when he has a draw or ~10% equity and you never want to be in the position of putting in large amounts while drawing nearly dead.

    Rather, it's correct to call him with nutted draws. So you'll be calling with the high end of open ended straight draws and nut flush draws. That way, whenever you're calling, you have either 90% equity your draw dominates his draw or ~30% equity when he has a set.

    That's why your hand is a fold, even against someone who might have some draws in his range.

    This kind of goes with what your concern in your other thread too. You said you've been playing more aggressively lately, so now you think people are capable of making some of the same moves that you're making. But that just shows the power of having a balanced range between semi-bluffs and value hands. Even if opponents know you have semi-bluffs in your range, it's still often not correct for them to continue with medium strength made hands.
  • bobo1384 Posts: 145Subscriber
    with A2s against 22, QTss,KTss you are

    53,159,553 games 16.553 secs 3,211,475 games/sec

    Board: As 2s Jc
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 58.751% 58.75% 00.00% 31232169 0.00 { 22, KsTs, QsTs }
    Hand 1: 41.249% 41.25% 00.00% 21927902 0.00 { Ah2h }


    If you put in KQs into his range your equity goes up more.

    Edit: I think his range is wider than that personally
  • Jseeley Posts: 48Member
    I don't know what games you play in where people limp in with KQ, KT and QT suited. Maybe I need to play in cali more... Let's say that this player did though, is a player that is limping those hands 3 betting a draw? I think not. Even though there is only one combo of 22 sometimes it doesn't matter, the player just has it, don't level yourself into thinking he doesnt. I think there may even be a combo of JJ in a weak players range. Maybe he was planning on limp re-raising.
  • Jseeley said

    I don't know what games you play in where people limp in with KQ, KT and QT suited. Maybe I need to play in cali more... Let's say that this player did though, is a player that is limping those hands 3 betting a draw? I think not. Even though there is only one combo of 22 sometimes it doesn't matter, the player just has it, don't level yourself into thinking he doesnt. I think there may even be a combo of JJ in a weak players range. Maybe he was planning on limp re-raising.
    Very good post. This is California and I wouldn't be surprised if villain's range is literally only AA, JJ, AJ and 22 here. I think this is a pretty standard fold to his 3bet in passive California games.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,080AdministratorLeadPro
    Wendy,

    I'll definitely discuss this hand with you more, tonight. I think you have to adjust to what you think your opponent thinks about your hand. You are a woman with a fairly snug image, and I can't imagine ever bet 3 betting a draw against you in this spot when you almost always have two pair plus. I wouldn't expect you to fold. Luckily for you you were actually at the bottom part of your range so when your villain did bet three bet you, when he is not doing it with draw he has you beat. I think you know this now but just forgot to hit your fold button.

    Bart
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