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I think I can't make big laydowns when I'm having a losing session

UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Maybe I lose more than necessary when I'm running bad because when I can't make the correct folds with certain hands when I would if I were playing my A-game.

Anyone else have the same kind of issue?

An example of two hands I incorrectly stacked off in that I could have gotten away from in a card dead session at a super juicy loose passive 2/5 table that played like the skill of 1/2

Hand 1 ~$500 effective:
Villain is a younger guy but an obvious recreational player and not aggro
Hero raises to 20 UTG with AA
3 callers including villain OTB
Kc Ts 7h flop
Hero bets $55
Villain calls
Turn 6x
Hero bets $150
Villain ships all-in
Against this guy who isn't too aggressive and would just call down with a K, AA is a fold here, but when I sit for hours at a good game and never play a hand and finally pick up AA, I don't want to fold when I already put half my stack in. He had K6s

So yes, I ran bad because he hit his 6, but that doesn't mean I should have called the turn shove.

Hand 2 ~$450 effective:
5 limpers, hero limps SB with Tc8c
Villain is in BB, another recreational player who isn't particularly creative but good enough not to overplay silly hands
8d 8h 2d flop
Hero bets $25
Villain calls
Everybody else folds
Turn 3x
Hero bets $65
Villain snap raises to $165
Hero calls
River blanks off
Hero checks
Villain ships, and I call out of frustration and lose to his 83o.
So did I run bad in the sense that he hit his 3? Yes. But when I'm having a good session, I might even get away from my hand on the turn. That or call turn and fold river.

If I were having a non-card dead session in such a beautiful loose passive game and actually able to get value sometimes, I think I would have found a fold in both of these hands.

Comments

  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    I do same. Its runbad/playbad. You can find folds there, although one of the reasons i play deep is because i seem to find folds like that easier. 100 bbs its tough to get away from overpairs and trips without your stack going in bad. That said, seems like you are suffering from a form of tilt. Im not sure how tomsolve it because by the time you find yourself calling too light, the damage has been done, in at least one hand. Of course, jared tindlers interview should be helpful. I just read his book leading up to the interview( thanks for the heads up bart, better interview having read the book), and you might find some help with that kind of subtle tilt in his book the mental game of poker. For my two cents, if you are toward the back end of a losing session, card dead, or running bad, just be very concious that you have this leak, and make it your number one priority over the next few sessions, in order to train yourself away from it. Even if you fold the best hand a few times, it may be worth it in the long run to train your mind to not tilt in this fashion. Hope this helps.
  • Tyrith Posts: 353Subscriber
    Fundamentally this is just a form of tilt. This might mean you need to take a break if you've been card dead for a few hours, or at the most extreme go home for the night. Regardless of how good the game is, if you are playing your tilted C-game being at the table is going to be -EV.

    In the long run, tilt issues can get better, but it would be letting pride get in the way of success to think that it's as simple as flipping some mental switch and the next day everything will be better. Very few of us have that kind of emotional control without a lot of practice.
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Still, none of these calls were mathematically ridiculous with these stack sizes. It was Borgata, $500 max, which was why both these hands were so shallow.

    I don't exactly tilt in the conventional manner when I get sucked out on. If the chips go in on an earlier street and I get sucked out on, I can probably lose 3-4 buyins this way and still be playing my A-game.

    But if I get sucked out on while there are still chips in the stacks and I pay off anyway when I'm already having a frustrating session, that's annoying.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Jersey Jay said

    I do same. Its runbad/playbad. You can find folds there, although one of the reasons i play deep is because i seem to find folds like that easier. 100 bbs its tough to get away from overpairs and trips without your stack going in bad. That said, seems like you are suffering from a form of tilt. Im not sure how tomsolve it because by the time you find yourself calling too light, the damage has been done, in at least one hand. Of course, jared tindlers interview should be helpful. I just read his book leading up to the interview( thanks for the heads up bart, better interview having read the book), and you might find some help with that kind of subtle tilt in his book the mental game of poker. For my two cents, if you are toward the back end of a losing session, card dead, or running bad, just be very concious that you have this leak, and make it your number one priority over the next few sessions, in order to train yourself away from it. Even if you fold the best hand a few times, it may be worth it in the long run to train your mind to not tilt in this fashion. Hope this helps.
    Sounds like me.. lol.. I think that I am doing this too right now..

    ww
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    Still, none of these calls were mathematically ridiculous with these stack sizes. It was Borgata, $500 max, which was why both these hands were so shallow.

    I don't exactly tilt in the conventional manner when I get sucked out on. If the chips go in on an earlier street and I get sucked out on, I can probably lose 3-4 buyins this way and still be playing my A-game.

    But if I get sucked out on while there are still chips in the stacks and I pay off anyway when I'm already having a frustrating session, that's annoying.
    Also sounds exactly like me. The worse thing is to feel like the complete donkey bozos you feel are so bad beat you in a hand..

    ww
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Claire said

    Still, none of these calls were mathematically ridiculous with these stack sizes. It was Borgata, $500 max, which was why both these hands were so shallow.

    I don't exactly tilt in the conventional manner when I get sucked out on. If the chips go in on an earlier street and I get sucked out on, I can probably lose 3-4 buyins this way and still be playing my A-game.

    But if I get sucked out on while there are still chips in the stacks and I pay off anyway when I'm already having a frustrating session, that's annoying.
    I don't even know why you are annoyed with the first hand. AK is the nuts to many rec players in that spot. You are easily making a good call off there.

    The second hand is a bit more debatable, as its a limped pot and there are a bunch of random hands thrown into the mix that you wouldn't think you have to worry about (like in the first hand when you raised UTG - although, K6s LOL), but I can definitely say that I've done it.

    I just keep trying to maintain a positive attitude. I WANT people to call with trash when I have a big hand. I WANT people to overplay their marginal hands. And, especially at the stakes I play, when someone jams, they have "it" and I just fold. I'm not giving up significant value by folding the best hand sometimes, because if the players are bad enough (most are), that money is coming back in multiples when I pick up a few hands. If they show an airball bluff, good for them. In their mind, they just outplayed me and they are the greatest thing since Chan vs Seidel in the WSOP. That overconfidence will come back and bite them later

    If all of that fails and I rack up and leave, I just tell myself that some other donkey will get their money and it will keep the poker eonomy flowing, so that when I come back there will be money for the taking.
  • RecreationalRogerRecreationalRoger Posts: 789Subscriber
    Here's something I'm doing that's helping me fix one of my leaks, the leak being hero calling with TPTK when I bet turn and V raises me (or check raises me):

    I started counting every time I see someone raise the turn, whether they had TPTK beat (obviously hand has to get shown down) (and I do this whether I'm in the hand or not).

    Right now it's 12-3: 12 turn raises > TPTK, 3 turn raises < TPTK. That helped wake me up.

    So maybe start tracking your results every time you make a hero call, or call even though your instincts said to fold. If you get to say 1-8, well then maybe the math can help override the emotion.

    FWIW, if I play bad, that can put me on tilt. If I got it in good against V and I get outdrawn, I happily rebuy. As Mike Caro said, I'd rather be bad beat than good beat.

    Roger
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    @Wackabrew, my point is, even though I'm not calling off like a complete idiot, I don't listen to my reads when I feel like I'm not good in certain spots if I'm not playing my disciplined A-game. In hand 1, I felt like he wasn't very strong the way he called the flop and that the turn definitely improved his hand. Still not a completely horrendous call, but I didn't listen to myself.

    In hand 2, I knew right away I wasn't good the way this particular player raised because I got a vibe from the way he did it that he was excited. And he's not stupid enough to think any 8 is the nuts. So I only called the turn. In some spots, I would just shove the turn if I thought I could be good a lot of the time. And I got stubborn again on the river.

    @Roger, I'm usually good at making mathematically correct or incorrect big folds, including with hands like TPTK. But for some reason, I slipped back into old habits this session. Maybe I ran too hot the past few months to have a truly frustrating session at a soft game.

    I do have pretty good instincts for someone of my limited experience. When there's a conflict between math and instincts, it's usually more profitable for me to go by instincts. But when I'm playing suboptimally, I start using math as an excuse for making what I perceive to be bad calls.

    I've even folded KT on a TT4x board 40BB deep to a turn raise and KJ on a KJ74Q to a river check/shove 70BB deep when the raise was less than a min-raise and was right both times. Online players would scoff at me for these kinds of folds, but playing very precise in certain spots like these is what make live poker so profitable.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    When you make a mistake you shouldn't be angry at yourself. First, do you really have an expectation that you'll never make a mistake in your life? So making mistakes is ok and natural. Second if you never make a mistake you don't need to improve - you're playing perfect. But nobody's perfect so our mistakes help us to keep working on our game. When you recognize that you made a mistake you should be happy cause you just get an opportunity to learn something.
  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    RogerHardy said

    Here's something I'm doing that's helping me fix one of my leaks, the leak being hero calling with TPTK when I bet turn and V raises me (or check raises me):

    I started counting every time I see someone raise the turn, whether they had TPTK beat (obviously hand has to get shown down) (and I do this whether I'm in the hand or not).

    Right now it's 12-3: 12 turn raises > TPTK, 3 turn raises < TPTK. That helped wake me up.

    So maybe start tracking your results every time you make a hero call, or call even though your instincts said to fold. If you get to say 1-8, well then maybe the math can help override the emotion.

    FWIW, if I play bad, that can put me on tilt. If I got it in good against V and I get outdrawn, I happily rebuy. As Mike Caro said, I'd rather be bad beat than good beat.


    Roger
    I like this. Sounds fun.
  • LucasE Posts: 167Member
    Not much to add at the moment - just posting to follow because I have this exact problem. Failing to make big folds is a big leak in my game.
  • AKtion Posts: 15Member
    It's a common problem i think.I used to have that but now im using a simple principle, i never call turn raise's with TPTK-Overpairs vs bad players.The only time you can call profitably is vs an above average player who you are 100% certain he can play back at you(have air on his range).
    So simply stated:
    Terribad raises turn-river:fold
    Terribad raises the flop with money behind: call and fold the turn to further aggresion
    Superstar raises the flop-turn and has less than 1/2 PSB left:fold
    Superstar raises the turn and has at least 1 PSB left:If there are draws im probably calling down my whole stack.Any good player leaving enough money behind after a raise probably wants to blow you out of the hand on a later street, if the play was for value he would probably want to make you feel pot-commited to a river shove.
    I know my advice looks exploitable but when you run bad you take bad decisions- cant think clear so i use those rules to stop me spew off money or be pushed around.
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