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A stupid PLO8 question about high only hands

UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Is there any literature on this game, or do I have to figure out how to play through experience? I've been playing $0.25/$0.50 online for practice and might take a trip to Foxwoods to play the 1/2 live game there.

First example:
I had As2sAhQx and raised over two limpers and the button also called
Ac 2c Tx flop
When checked to me, do I bet anyway? The problem is, this board screws my low potential, and the high hand isn't a lock for me because I don't have the flush draw and some broadway wraps might also have a shot at high against me.

In the actual hand, I bet about 3/4 pot and only the button called.
Then, the turn was a 9.
Now if I pot it and get it in, I feel like that might be stupid because he might have a low draw to go with whatever high draw he has, so I could be getting scooped. But on the other hand, if he only has draws and I have the best made hand, I win if the river bricks.
If I c/c, then what do I do on various rivers?

Second example:
I overlimped two people with AdKdQcJc from the CO and the button also limps
I pot a Kc Ts 3h flop and the button repots and I call
The turn was a 7s, which is a bdfd I don't have and a low card, so in my opinion, a bad turn.
Can I still c/c this turn and try to hit my high here?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire


    First Hand:
    First off most players are calling with low hands.. So you def want to be this flop to charge them to make a low. And if they have a club draw you also want to charge them for that as well.

    Second.. most players are not going to raise you with any flush draw.. They just wont ..not even a combo royal flush draw.. so bet there too.

    Thirdly the other players can easily have A2 as well and they will think when you bet your have other wheel cards.. so just because the 2 isnt a good card for your low its a good card in the sense that your opponents are not paying attention and you could in theory bluff at the pot. You dont need to because you have a set but you could if you didnt.

    Now the turn card comes and I just LOVE ..LOVE that card! The 9 doesnt complete any straights .. Its a high card so I still have the nuts and can get called by low draws now that they have half the equity they had on the flop.. So bet again.. and bet as big as you think you can get called..

    What you dont want to see is a broadway card or a club.. But again most players will lead out on the river when they have hit their draws and depending how big the bet is its most likely a fold.. That said if i have position and its like three or more ways and the club comes in I wont bet .. if the broadway card comes in and its checked I will probably put out a small value bet trying to get looked up by 2 pair.

    If a 5 comes on the river I am folding to any bet.. the 34 would have been the nut low draw and thats the most likely low hand for someone to have..

    Second Hand:
    Perfect limp.. with a high only hand I want as many players in the pot to get their dead money if I flop a big hand.. I also want to ONLY be drawing to the nuts in a high only hand.. Just play this exactly like you would normally in PLO.. One thing you do have to be aware of backdoor low draws as many players will peel flop to see if they improve on the turn.

    On this flop with my Pair and wrap on rainbow board I am potting and getting it in.. Since so many players will peel with backdoor low draws you need to get them out of the hand as best you can now .. Most likely (and in fact almost 100%) the person who bet this flop has a made high.. Against a range of AKxx KTxx, TTxx, 33xx and the like you can calc your equity but your equity should be pretty high.. If flop bettor has say a set of 3s and a low hand thats the worse you can see.. Say A334 or something like that.. backdoor equity for a low is pretty important in PLO8 and you need to drive your high as much as possible.

    Now that the turn comes I dont think you are going to get anyone with a low out.. So you might as well just call to see if you hit your straight. You can still check call but if you get a lot of heat.. like the flop bettor bets and someone behind you pots you might have to give up your hand.. now your outs have been reduced because someone can easily have any two spades in your hand so the As, Ks, Qs, Js are no longer clean outs for you.

    If you call and one of those cards come and the flop bettor checks I am checking behind or making a very small value bet and if I get raised just folding knowing that the other player(s) have a flush..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Ok, got it. So high only hands are still strong hands in certain spots. Just checking. I'm starting to like high only hands a lot better than low only hands (if I had to pick one), and I started folding pre with some low only hands even if they're A23x if they're not suited.

    In the first hand, I bet pretty big on the turn and he folded.
    In the second hand, I probably would have folded the turn if it paired the board. But I called the turn and bricked out and folded the river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    Ok, got it. So high only hands are still strong hands in certain spots. Just checking. I'm starting to like high only hands a lot better than low only hands (if I had to pick one), and I started folding pre with some low only hands even if they're A23x if they're not suited.

    In the first hand, I bet pretty big on the turn and he folded.
    In the second hand, I probably would have folded the turn if it paired the board. But I called the turn and bricked out and folded the river.
    So A23x should be played for a flop 100% of the time unless you get two players potting and you are in the middle. This is too powerful a hand. See with wheel potential you could be freerolling to scoop on a flop of say A48.. You can put alot of pressure on your opponents with this type of hand. Many Aces that have better kickers cant take a lot of heat without a good low draw and many players with say 23 will call and you have them crushed.

    I wouldnt raise preflop with those type of hand for the same reasons I dont raise with big only hands. you want players in the pot..then when you flop big you have the potential to scoop a big one.. That said if the x portion of A23x is say a J, K or Q you should be raising preflop with that hand and especially if you have a suited ace..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I folded an A23x badugi hand UTG earlier today because when you're chasing a low in pot limit, you have to call huge bets to draw for half the pot, and you can't know for sure whether the other guy also has your same low when you hit your low. And I would have been OOP.

    Isn't the turn usually a fold when you have a naked nut low draw and your opponent is betting big? That's why I think low only hands are nothing special OOP.

    But what do I know about this game?
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    On another thought too on the second hand.. When you pot with your wrap and pair you can put alot and I mean alot of pressure on your opponent.. So you could even potentially get them to fold say K3 or even KT.. at the game in foxwoods that might be a bit harder since they are all calling stations but there are some players that would fold to your potting with that flop..

    And the great thing is even if they dont fold it really doesnt matter since you generally have their range crushed.. I think even against a set you are still a big favorite.. So pot and get it in and ONLY call if you are both super deep and want to make sure that the board doesnt pair the turn..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Yeah, I don't know why I only called the flop in that hand. Sometimes I'm aggro/passive at the wrong times in Omaha games because I have no idea with which hands I should be pushing the action. That's why I'm playing online and only down $200 instead of $2000 live. But I'm probably going to try that Foxwoods game pretty soon. As bad as I am, at least I have some understanding of poker in general, which will make me automatically better than all the fish.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    I folded an A23x badugi hand UTG earlier today because when you're chasing a low in pot limit, you have to call huge bets to draw for half the pot, and you can't know for sure whether the other guy also has your same low when you hit your low. And I would have been OOP.

    Isn't the turn usually a fold when you have a naked nut low draw and your opponent is betting big? That's why I think low only hands are nothing special OOP.

    But what do I know about this game?
    That is true.. so on a board thats say 87K and you have A23 and its headsup or even three ways and one player is betting big on a 9 turn ..yes fold. for one you are on a low only draw, you dont have a draw to a straight AND most importantly the other player is also probably has A2 and even if you hit you are getting quartered..

    You would want to stay in on a 45K flop..9 turn you I think can still call a pot bet as long as the player has some money left.. you have a mini wrap to a wheel and that means the A, 2, 3 will make you a wheel and scoop so thats 9 outs and the 8,7,6 will make you the nut low.. and thats 12 outs.. 21 outs to at least chop x 2 = almost 50% to at least chop and about 18% to win.. In that situation even if villain pots turn you can still call..

    Now if its three hand it gets a bit more complicated because more likely that player also has A2 on a 45K board..and now you have 50% to chop but your chop will chop so there I would fold or call depending on how the action went..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Hopefully I'll be good enough to be able to play some non-NLH games live this summer.

    I'm starting to think my NLH improvement is flatlining, or it's a lot harder to look for new things to improve on without risking a lot of money in high stakes. So I'm suffering from "I have to find something to get better at" syndrome.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Low only hands can give you a powerful tool on some rivers to actually bluff villain off a high only hand..

    Ex Hero has A257 with a suited ace in clubs.. Two villains in hand flop comes

    45K rainbow with 1 spade.... Villain 1 bets close to pot V2 calls and you call.

    Turn is the 9 spades.. V1 bets again.. V2 folds and you call.

    River is a 8 spades.. You bet pot..

    you made your low but now there is a flush on the board.. does villain call you? most of the time they will fold a mediocre hand and you win a nice pot as a bluff with a scary river with just the nut low..

    ww
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    Claire,

    I've played about 400 hours of live $1/$2 PLO8 (home game, with lots of different players) and what it comes down to at low limits is trying to get the money in (especially on the flop) when you have scoop draws. Nut flush draw + Nut low draw, Wheel wrap + anything, etc. I can't tell you how many times I get it all in with the nut low on the flop, and I'm freerolling (or ahead!) for the high half. Or, even better, I have dominating draws on both sides. Yesterday, I had Ac4c5hKh on a flop of 2h3h9c, and got it all in with a guy who had Ad6hThQc -- and this is not rare. (Of course the turn&river were QQ Yell, but that's not the point.)

    You are correct in that you should be folding a naked nut low draw on the turn.

    I'll skip the usual diatribe about knowing your players, because you already know it, but it is just as important in PLO8.:-)

    In hand one, the turn is a great card to bet. Sometimes you will value own yourself when he has AT. But mostly he'll have a low draw, and when the 9 hits I would bet the **** out of it.

    Hand two, I am repotting this flop all day, because people will call with stupid things like one pair and a backdoor low draw. I will often raise hands like this from late position because it disguises my range, and when a lot of people call, there are usually a lot of low cards out, meaning more high flops (and scoops!) for me.

    HTH.
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