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$5/$10 - Overbet With Second Nuts Gets Shoved On

dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,001Subscriber

$5/$10 at Commerce

Villain (UTG - $2000) - 30s Asian Male, hasn't been at the table long. Seems solid, hasn't gotten out of line, but small sample size.

Hero (Button - $1800) - 30s Black Male, neutral to negative image. Caught bluffing on a scary runout in a big pot not too long before this hand. Aside from that, preflop the tightest player at the table.

Preflop: Villain UTG opens to $40. Hero only caller on Button with K J.
Pot $90. Flop Q 9 8. Villain bets $65. Hero calls.
Pot $220. Turn T. Villain checks. Hero bets $100. Villain calls.
Pot $420. River 5. Villain checks. Hero bets $600. Villain tanks and shoves ~$1000 more. Hero?

Preflop is okay I think. My plan was to fold the turn if I hit top pair, but he bet flop and turn. Raising the flop would be an overplay, so I just call.

Turn I hit gin. When he checks, I bet smaller to try not to blow him out. The only club draw he could have would be A K, and if he hits that on the river, or the board pairs, I'm going to be able to get away without too much damage.

Flush comes home on the river, and he checks after a few seconds. He has all sets in his range, plus JJ. I don't know if I can get called by any of those on this board with a normal C-Bet, so I overbet. Good? Bad?

He tanks for a loooooong time, then shoves! Did my overbet induce craziness? Or did he read me for exactly what I have and get me with A Q? Is this ever a bluff? Or a shove for value with worse?


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    I apologize in advance this is going to be a skewer..


    second nuts is the Ace high flush.. the nuts is 67ss..

    Preflop fine call on the button..

    Flop calling is fine if you think villain wont fold to a raise..but you have a pretty big hand. and villain didnt bet that big.. I am probably going to raise rather big in this spot. especially in position.

    turn. You have turned the nuts. on a now double flushed board.. pot has $220 and you bet $100.. thats just way way too small. I am going to put alot more pressure here .. Villain can have an overpair two pair nut flush draw backdoor flush draw lots and lots of hands that will call you. ESPECIALLY since you were caught bluffing.. when you bet so small its looks like a value bet.. USE your image ..you were just caught bluffing. and you bet so small. you can get called so much lighter.. bet close to pot!

    river.. now you hit a flush and you bet so big.. what hands does villain have that will call this size bet??? Dana Dana Dana.. this just looks like you are playing your hand not his.. when the flush comes in after he calls your small bet his range is so wide he is not calling a bet that size without the two better hands .. he probably would have bet a set on the turn so at best he has the straight to the Queen.. but the spade on the river will scare him with that hand. Had the river been a non spade then I love the overbet..

    Its not what you have its what can the villain call you with. In this spot with the spade on the river you have to bet smaller to get called by say Queens up or a jack or a pair of AAs or KKs.

    On the turn I am betting way way bigger like $200-$300 given the board texture and your image. Then on the river I would have bet around $400-500

    as played I think you bet pot and thats it.. never ever overpot.. remember last time your bluffed you just tried to bluff the river.. here you bet on the turn then bet HUGE on the river.. thats just so nutty..

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Sorry one more thing about raising the flop. If stacks are deep enough and you raise then hit your straight draw you can bet so much more that someone with say 67ss or the nut flush cant call your turn bet profitably..

    when you call then bet so small they have not only correct pot odds they have huge implied odds if you overbet like you did.. overbetting is when the board is polarized and you have a nutty hand.. or a hand wheres its obvious you have the better hand. Its a tricky skill that I am still trying to learn.

    You dont overbet when villains range is NOT polarized and he can be drawing to the nuts.. like in this hand..

    again I apologize if this seems to heavy handed ..

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,001Subscriber
    Yes, sorry, I have the third nuts. At the time I didn't think he'd open 67ss from UTG, so I felt I had the "effective" second nuts...

    Thanks for the feedback. I knew this hand was played poorly at about every opportunity.

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I think Bart has commented that many times not only does abc poker win the money, it also gives you a more realistic picture of where u stand in a hand, ie, you get more reliable information.

    Here in this hand, you underbet the turn and over bet the river, and seemed to have leveled yourself into putting in 160 BB on the river against a line that is almost always the nuts (especially when u consider the perceived strength of hero).
  • BartBart Posts: 5,833AdministratorLeadPro
    Yeah bet larger on the turn but smaller on the river. It's very difficult for him to call w any 1 pair hands at the end to large sizing due to the 4 liner and flush coming in. As played river is a fold, and I think quite an easy one actually. This isn't the same as my trip tens hand. And there is just no way someone is turning a hand like A X× into a bluff.
  • [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited December 2015
    1) Consider raising flop next time.
    2) AP bet turn bigger
    3) AP bet river smaller (dont overbet)
    4) Fold river. Almost no one live is sick enough to bluff shove over an overbet.
    by 1Clock
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