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$5-$5 Preflop decision vs "The Doc" and Iso button raiser

RizenRizen Posts: 58Subscriber
5/5 PLO
Hero UTG($1500)
Doc MP ($650)
Button ($1600)

Doc is a recreational player who plays every hand, is loud and talkative and smiling all the time, and obviously here to gamble. Button is unknown and hasn't played a lot of hands or been out of line that I know of

Hero raises to $20 (7 8 9 10 )
Doc calls $20
Button raises to $90
Hero calls
Doc clasps his hands together and says " Pot, Pot, Pot. I'm all in " and throws all his chips in with a huge grin on his face. Before the raise is counted out Button pots it again so now it's suddenly up to me. Doc's pot was to 360 and the button raise to 1260.
Hero? Is this a standard spot to gii? What say CLP?
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Comments

  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Before I run any numbers I'm going to guess that it's very close to breakeven on equity. So it all comes down to the pluses and minuses of busting or having a big stack - for you and each opponent.
  • BradleyT Posts: 621SubscriberProfessional
    Well shit, none of the sims are coming out in your favor. And if you run a graph simulation you can probably come to the conclusion that your hand mostly wants to see flops and fold rather than AIPF.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    We can make this into a math problem. Let's assume button has a top 10% hand and Doc has a 10-40% hand. You have 29.8% in the main pot and 39.3% In the side.

    EV = side + Main
    EV = [29.8%(1390) - 70.2%(560)] + [39.3%(850) - 60.7%(850)]
    EV = -160

    Thus, it would be -EV to GII, so you have to fold.
  • RizenRizen Posts: 58Subscriber
    High__Rolla said:
    We can make this into a math problem. Let's assume button has a top 10% hand and Doc has a 10-40% hand. You have 29.8% in the main pot and 39.3% In the side.

    EV = side + Main
    EV = [29.8%(1390) - 70.2%(560)] + [39.3%(850) - 60.7%(850)]
    EV = -160

    Thus, it would be -EV to GII, so you have to fold.
    Wow thanks for the calculations. Just goes to show how important the maths in PLO are. I feel like most players would get in here because we have a good multiway hand

  • RizenRizen Posts: 58Subscriber
    Your post also reiterates the often overlooked fact that PLO is post flop game; and hands like mine should be content to keep it as so
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    Rizen said:
    Your post also reiterates the often overlooked fact that PLO is post flop game; and hands like mine should be content to keep it as so
    Propokertools.com is very useful for PLO. I try to look at the equities for several hands after each session. Helps develop better feel for it because some are much different than I would have guessed.

    What really kills you is the large side pot where you each put in $850. You are taking the worst of this at 39.3%. If you had the same stack as Doc here, it would be +EV to call mainly due to the overlay of what is already in the pot.
  • Dusty Posts: 233Subscriber
    since Doc's hand is unknown its a fold to me. if they both were typical PLO players and both their hands are heavily weighted to AA hands then you would be ahead of them if they did indeed share the Aces.
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    Rizen said:
    Doc is a recreational player who plays every hand, is loud and talkative and smiling all the time, and obviously here to gamble.
    This isn't going to be super relevant to his 4-bet range. There are a ton of players who fit this description who will literally only 4-bet aces (and flat the 3-bet with the rest of their range), and others who will 4-bet their entire range.
    High__Rolla said:
    We can make this into a math problem. Let's assume button has a top 10% hand and Doc has a 10-40% hand.
    I don't see why you would discount Doc having a top 10% hand here? Your simulation is based on Doc NEVER 4-betting AAxx which seems pretty unreasonable to me.
  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    Aesah said:
    High__Rolla said:
    We can make this into a math problem. Let's assume button has a top 10% hand and Doc has a 10-40% hand.
    I don't see why you would discount Doc having a top 10% hand here? Your simulation is based on Doc NEVER 4-betting AAxx which seems pretty unreasonable to me.
    I think his line of flatting and then backraising is unlikely AAXx for a player of this description and verbal statements. It just seems like he's found a spot where he wants to gamble. But, you're right, we should not eliminate completely.

    Regardless, I suspect it makes the EV calculation above even more negative if we add 0% to 10% hands in.
    by 1Aesah
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    High__Rolla said:


    Regardless, I suspect it makes the EV calculation above even more negative if we add 0% to 10% hands in.
    Not quite since top 10% shares a lot of other cards with top 10%- it helps us a bit. However your conclusion is still correct here, it only changes it very slightly.
  • RizenRizen Posts: 58Subscriber
    High_Rolla was spot on with range analysis regarding Doc's hand. Doc had AKJx and button had AA. Doc originally had a calling hand but now that there was some raising and building of a 3 bet pot he just wanted to get it all In and gamble. I can't just assume a top 10% hand from some guy playing 100vpip even from a backraise. Its kind of a live game flow thing. He was hardly paying attention and just talking all the time and just decided to gamble; it was pretty easy to tell he wasn't being deceptive preflop
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