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Adding the check raise to my game.

One thing I've noticed is that aside from c/r the flop against a c-bet I'm not really working the check raise into my game that much. I this stems from the fact that I used to, and still sometimes do, try and get a little too fancy with my play and end up loosing value. I've learned live, especially at the 1/2 and 1/3 games I play, is much more about just pounding for value and we shouldn't really checking that often, even if we plan to c/r. This is most because people, especially at 1/2 and 1/3, are usually pretty passive and will check back too much with their weak and medium strength hands to c/r. This causes us to loose a lot of value as these players are often bad enough to call down with those medium and weak hands. Also, stacks and SPRs are usually shallow enough in these games that going bet bet bet in most raised pots is enough to get stacks in. However, as I move into more 2/5, where buy-ins range from 500-1000 cap at my local casinos, and where players are a better and more aggressive I want to start looking for spots to use the check raise.

First I think the player type to target with a c/r is most important. For the check raise to be successful first we obviously have to check and then the villain must bet so that we can raise. This means we should target people who are relatively aggressive and will bet with a wide range of hands.

Second, we have to look for a good situation where villain is likely to bet. Like I said i'm new to using the c/r but this is a situation where i think it makes sense.

Lets say we are in EP and raise with QJs. Player in CO calls and we see a flop of 3T8 rainbow. We bet, V calls. Turn is a 9 giving us the nut straight. Overall this card is much better for villain range then ours. A lot of V's flop calling range is Tx and 8x and almost all those hands improve in some way. Whether it is improving to two pair or becoming a pair plus SD hand. It is also bad for our range. We have a lot of over cards in our range here that are just giving up and V will probably want to bet in order to protect his hand. IMO this makes this a good spot to c/r. hands like 89 that may just call call if we go bet bet on turn and river now have to put in much more money if stacks are deep and we aren't too worried about V checking back. If he does we probably couldn't of gotten 3 streets anyway, any hand that has equity is betting and a lot that check back are drawing to a dominated straight. Also if V has a hand like J9 that he bets and we c/r a bad player may convince himself to call while he is drawing to a chop or lower straight. He also probably just calls turn and folds river when he misses if we go bet bet so this lets us get extra value from his draw now. Also means the pot is bigger if he hits a dominated hand.

What do you think of this analysis and how do you use the check raise in your game.

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Comments

  • dontfeedthenits Posts: 396Subscriber
    edited January 2016
    Check raise for value (building the pot) on flop or turn against Villains who have trouble folding. There should be plenty of these spots at 1/2 and 1/3. The classic example is you flop a set and you know V can't fold over pairs (but can fold after if an over card comes on the turn). This is a great time to go for a value check/raise.

    Much less common... check raise bluff the turn or river against tight winning players when obvious draws come in (especially flush).

    at 1/2 and 1/3 I would focus on C/R for value on early streets. C/R for value on the river is usually a mistake against bad players, because bad players tend to check back almost all of their range OTR, but will call a donk bet.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,287Subscriber
    1st off, CRing is seen as polarized vs a thinking player but not a bad player. And it is polarized for the most part. How often do you CR TPGK with a high SPR? Almost never.

    So keep this in mind. Vs the masses of bad fish CRing is a tool where most of the time you use it as a bluff.

    Examples are.....

    MP, you call in BB with Q6o. MP has a habit of CBing too much. A flop of A72r comes down and you CR him. Fairly easy board to do it on as you have absolutely nothing. He calls you X-F. He folds GREAT!

    CRing to protect your hand. Lets say you flop a set and you have very sticky players who won't semi-bluff raise but will bet very often if checked to in a multiway pot. Here you can check, let them bet for you, trap everyone between then CR on a very drawy board.

    CRing as a semi-bluff. You have a similar situation above except your opponents fold to lots of aggression. You can CR a big draw to KO all the other hands and improve your equity in a hand. Say Player B will call with TPWK if you bet but fold if you CR in a multiway pot.

    Vs bad, clueless players your CRes will mostly be bluffs and not even close to being balanced. Vs thinking regs you have to balance your CRes.

    vs thinking players CRes play a little different. There is a decent article by Ed Miller on CRing thinking opponents.
    http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12547-poker-strategy-check-raise-bluffing-the-flop


  • baudib1 Posts: 218Subscriber
    It's pretty tricky because if you check raise too often, then your c/c range is gutted. If you don't check-raise often enough, your opponents can take frequent stabs without too much fear.

  • dontfeedthenits Posts: 396Subscriber
    edited January 2016
    Fuzzypup said:
    1st off, CRing is seen as polarized vs a thinking player but not a bad player. And it is polarized for the most part. How often do you CR TPGK with a high SPR? Almost never.

    So keep this in mind. Vs the masses of bad fish CRing is a tool where most of the time you use it as a bluff.

    Examples are.....

    MP, you call in BB with Q6o. MP has a habit of CBing too much. A flop of A72r comes down and you CR him. Fairly easy board to do it on as you have absolutely nothing. He calls you X-F. He folds GREAT!

    CRing to protect your hand. Lets say you flop a set and you have very sticky players who won't semi-bluff raise but will bet very often if checked to in a multiway pot. Here you can check, let them bet for you, trap everyone between then CR on a very drawy board.

    CRing as a semi-bluff. You have a similar situation above except your opponents fold to lots of aggression. You can CR a big draw to KO all the other hands and improve your equity in a hand. Say Player B will call with TPWK if you bet but fold if you CR in a multiway pot.

    Vs bad, clueless players your CRes will mostly be bluffs and not even close to being balanced. Vs thinking regs you have to balance your CRes.

    vs thinking players CRes play a little different. There is a decent article by Ed Miller on CRing thinking opponents.
    http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12547-poker-strategy-check-raise-bluffing-the-flop


    I don't think C/R bluffing as the preflop raiser in a $1/$2 game is a good plan. In a tough $2/$5 game, fine. At $1/$2 or $1/$3 that feels like FPS to me.

    by 1Jonw23
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,287Subscriber
    dontfeedthenits said:

    I don't think C/R bluffing as the preflop raiser in a $1/$2 game is a good plan. In a tough $2/$5 game, fine. At $1/$2 or $1/$3 that feels like FPS to me.
    As the PF Raiser? Totally depends on the player and I didnt say this was common practice. I just gave examples of when you could CR in general. I'd say the frequency is very VERY low as the PF Raiser. In fact I don't remember the last time I did it live. You have to have a sticky opponent who calls bets but fears CRes.
  • jacked1420 Posts: 72Subscriber
    1/2 and 1/3 I think value betting and getting in big hand over big hand where this player pool will not fold is the best strategy. At 2/5 you have to know you have the best hand or the opportunity to get better to fold, against a player that does not respect your check raise; calls and again a a bigger bet on the next street.

    CR should b in your tool check and should be used like a hammer working on a nail. Lets say you smooth call a $25 raise with AA in oop to a lag. The flop is aq7 you check and he bets $50. You smooth call and on the turn there is an 8 completing the RB and you check and he bets 125 into a pot of 150 he is an opportunity to CR and more than likely get a call as he appears to be strong. However lets say you make it 250 or $300 does he come over the top? If no say you pot is now 750 and you lead for another $500 to 750 does he call on say a K that does not beat you?

    IMHO Work on your overall strategy including great reads and adding CR into spots that will yield max value either by getting better to fold on unfavorable run outs or getting value from weaker that will not fold. Play your big hand big straight forward at these levels with a goal of maxing your value.

    As you move up and plan to take shoots spend some time at the 5-10 level observing and see how often the top players are trappy using CR's. That should give you an idea of how often you should use that hammer

    Good luck
  • dontfeedthenits Posts: 396Subscriber
    jacked1420 said:
    1/2 and 1/3 I think value betting and getting in big hand over big hand where this player pool will not fold is the best strategy. At 2/5 you have to know you have the best hand or the opportunity to get better to fold, against a player that does not respect your check raise; calls and again a a bigger bet on the next street.

    CR should b in your tool check and should be used like a hammer working on a nail. Lets say you smooth call a $25 raise with AA in oop to a lag. The flop is aq7 you check and he bets $50. You smooth call and on the turn there is an 8 completing the RB and you check and he bets 125 into a pot of 150 he is an opportunity to CR and more than likely get a call as he appears to be strong. However lets say you make it 250 or $300 does he come over the top? If no say you pot is now 750 and you lead for another $500 to 750 does he call on say a K that does not beat you?

    IMHO Work on your overall strategy including great reads and adding CR into spots that will yield max value either by getting better to fold on unfavorable run outs or getting value from weaker that will not fold. Play your big hand big straight forward at these levels with a goal of maxing your value.

    As you move up and plan to take shoots spend some time at the 5-10 level observing and see how often the top players are trappy using CR's. That should give you an idea of how often you should use that hammer

    Good luck
    Don't smooth call a $25 preflop raise with aces OOP at 1/3 though. Reraise all day. :)
  • jacked1420 Posts: 72Subscriber
    http://www.crushlivepoker.com/articles/check-raising-the-river Here is a little something on CR from Bart
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