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AA multi way out of position

napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Here we go!

2/5
Four limpers. I make it 35 from sb with AA.
BB calls and everyone else calls.

Pot is 210 going to flop, 5 opponents have position on you. You have 540 left.

What's your plan?

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    honestly with this many players in the pot there arent going to be too many nice flops. If its super wet like 8JT with two suits I might even check it.. though betting and folding to alot of heat could also be taken. With so many players there is going to be lots of made hands and draws out there.. so unless it comes very dry like

    K 62 r

    be prepared to fold it .. Now there are some caveots to this depending on the action and the actual players..

    ww
  • AKtion Posts: 15Member
    bet fold, bet fold, bet fold.
  • napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    With an SPR of only ~2.5, are we ever bet-folding here?

    I'm not claiming we're not... I'm not a good enough player to know the optimal play here. It's a weird spot.

    Haven't I gotten what I wanted with this hand? An easy decision due to a low SPR? Get it in almost regardless of how the flop runs out?

    Or do we check and see what happens? If there's one bettor, maybe we can check shove over him? If there's a bet and multiple calls we do the same thing? If there's a bet and a raise we can fold? Still shove?

    Super confused.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I am betting between 70 and 110 on most flops (maybe the top 70% of flops).
    Whether I am going to bet/fold or bet/call highly depends on further action, villains' tendencies, reactions and behaviour, etc. I guess I'd bet/fold 80% of the time and bet/call around 20% the time.
    The key is IMO that, given the SPR, you really don't need to bet much on the flop, no matter if you are going to call or fold if raised. You can easily get all the money by the river.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    I'm betting 125-140 OTF and shipping turn. I would never check OTF.
  • LOLshoveaments Posts: 10Member
    napncrash said

    With an SPR of only ~2.5, are we ever bet-folding here?

    I'm not claiming we're not... I'm not a good enough player to know the optimal play here. It's a weird spot.

    Haven't I gotten what I wanted with this hand? An easy decision due to a low SPR? Get it in almost regardless of how the flop runs out?

    Or do we check and see what happens? If there's one bettor, maybe we can check shove over him? If there's a bet and multiple calls we do the same thing? If there's a bet and a raise we can fold? Still shove?

    Super confused.
    I'm assuming the effective stack is 575.

    SPR should be adjusted down in a multi-way pot. In a 6-way pot you're going to want an SPR near 1 so you can just shove flop for a pot sized bet.

    The hand can be played easier by raising pre-flop more. 35 from the SB against 4 limpers is way too small IMO. I would make it 45 or even 50 in some games. This will get some folds obviously but would you rather play a $210 6-way pot with 540 behind or a $170 3-way pot with 525 behind?
  • napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    Flop: Q94hhc

    You do not have Ah.

    You are first to act.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    This is a pretty good flop actually..

    Not too many Q9s certainly not many 49s or Q4s out there.. so I am mainly only worried about 99 or 44 of which there are only three combos each . So if villains range is

    Ax hh , AQ, KQ, 4x where the 4 is a heart, Some Kx hh , JT, a few KJs, 99 and 44 I have 73% equity against this.. I am probably betting and going with it on the flop. Now we can see why Bart always talks about the fact that NOT having the Ah is so key here. That puts so so many more flush draws out there..


    Now if I bet and someone raises and a really tight person shoves for like 100bbs or more then I am folding knowing that the tight guy probably has a made hand and that I am not doing as well against.. But that is player dependent..

    wendy
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Another very important thing to look at on the flop is are there hands that fish think might be "the nuts" which you actually beat.

    I can't tell you how many times I've seen at 1/2 or 2/5 a guy will have AQ or something in this spot when you're the PFR and basically shove on you thinking you must have AK or clubs or something.

    If the flop is like 874 it's much less likely IMO that someone shoves A8 because so many overpairs beat them. On the other hand, if they had limped TT or 99 on a 874 board they might think "I have an overpair, I shove."

    It's also important to note when you raised. If several people limped and you raised, it's much less likely anyone has QQ or 99. If you had raised UTG someone could absolutely have QQ or 99 and didn't reraise. AQ of course is less likely, but you do so people who limp/call it and then figure the pot is just too big and shove.

    Finally, on this board there are a ton of straight and flush draws that people might decide to shove. So IMO it's really hard to fold on this board unless a huge super nit shoves.

    We should also remember we have 10% equity vs a set. So if we bet say $125 and get shoved on, we need to call $415 to win 875 or about 2.1-1. We need ~32% equity and we have 10% equity vs the worst possible situation.
  • napncrash Posts: 177Subscriber
    @ww: Yeah, I agree; this flop is an action flop and I'm willing to get it in against any other hand who's also willing. SO many draws, so many Q's that can't let go, which brings us to PiF's point:

    "Hey, I have a queen, I gotta get it in here."

    Well, I butchered the hand (and another reason why my winrate makes me want to vomit).

    I, like the donkey moron piece of garbage that I am, I checked to see what happens.

    I'm hyper-embarrassed to even admit I checked, but this forum is supposed to make me better, right? *VOMIT VOMIT I HATE MYSELF*

    So anyway, I check and the first limper fires out kinda small. He was reasonably loose, but that doesn't account for why he's betting out here. Anyway, older Asian guy (who I haven't seen be out of line yet) raises. Comes to me and I fold. The lead bettor also folds.

    Raiser shows a Q and mucks. When he leaves, I politely ask him if he'd be willing to say what he had.

    "Ace queen."

    I puked in my mouth. That's a "huge" pot. That's a winrate killer. It was bad. MUB in full effect.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Don't say to that yourself. I have the exact same problem and I've done it a ton of times.

    It could be I cbet into multiple people and get raised by what I think is a decent player. I figure he's not turning AQ into a bluff and he's not dumb enough to think AQ is the nuts, and then I got shown AQ. So I just add in the spazz factor when making the decision.

    BTW, you can't be sure he really had AQ.

    Quick anecdote: I had a similar spot at 1/2 with JJ multiway I think 7 ways pre with an SPR of like 2.5-3. The tightest nittiest old guy in the world snap shoves over my bet on a 972 board and I tank forever and end up folding. He shows a single nine and claims K9s. I was really annoyed for a while, but then I watched him play and he doesn't even play K9s utg. So I think he was just trying to tilt me for no particular reason - I saw him raise twice in several hours and both times he had the stone nuts. So don't sweat because people claim stuff - you might have still been beat.

    I don't think it's MUBS. We just need to account for that spazz factor in our range.

    Finally, I think it's really important to remember that we have 10% equity vs a set and ~27% equity vs 2 pair. So we don't have to have them killed or be a decent fav vs a draw very much to be getting the right price to call.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    napncrash said *VOMIT VOMIT I HATE MYSELF*
    This is way bigger mistake than folding aces. Your incorrect fold there (if it was incorrect) is not a "winrate killer" cause this situation doesn't come up very often to have devastating effect on your winrate. But your way of thinking is "winrate killer" cause you apply it every time you play and if it's flawed small mistakes from all hands you play accumulate into big loss over time.
    Do you really expect to never make a mistake when playing? Everybody makes mistakes and what distinguish good players that they learn from mistakes they make. Bashing yourself for a mistake is counterproductive. Accepting mistake and learning from it great for you and your winrate.
  • In general I am not folding post flop in these spots unless I get raised by a complete nit. It's going to be hard to fold on the flop you had come out.
  • MBPLive Posts: 15Subscriber
    Is the raise to 35 preflop with AA enough in this situation? Does anyone like making it something just goofy big (because someone always seems to call anyway)...like raising to 65-85. Ive been experimenting with really large raises and almost nothing is so big they all fold. Our posititon is aweful and it feels the only way to make real money in this hand is to let a bad player make a big mistake preflop....which they love to do. Any other ideas?
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    bet 110 on the flop and see what happens.
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