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2/5nl $1500 Effective

Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5nl

$1500 Effective

Villain- Bad, loose, spewy, asian, plays bigger.

Hero- Good winning image.

UTG straddles $10
Villain calls $10 in ep
Three others call $10
Hero raises to $70 with AhKs
UTG folds
Villain calls
Field folds

($180) Kc 8d 4d

Villain checks
Hero bets $115
Villain raises to $315
Hero calls

($810) Kc 8d 4d 5s

Villain bets $450
Hero?

Comments

  • LOLshoveaments Posts: 10Member
    I hate this spot but I fold. The turn bet says he is playing for stacks and if you get it in here you'll be behind more often than not. If you think he's betting turn again with his entire flop check-raising range then call turn, call river IMO.
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    $450 looks more like a value bet against your range than a spew. I think I fold here. If he shows down air, make a note. Making thin calls against spewtard aggros is a recipe for high variance. If you can handle it, go for it!
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    TJ said

    $450 looks more like a value bet against your range than a spew. I think I fold here. If he shows down air, make a note. Making thin calls against spewtard aggros is a recipe for high variance. If you can handle it, go for it!
    I never really considered calling turn. I thought it was just a shove or fold spot due to remaining stack size. If i call turn the pot will be $1760 on the river and we will only have about $500 remaining. I know Bart loves making big calls on turns to c/f rivers but i just cant imagine this stack size allows for this. no? If we were deeper, or the pot was not so bloated due to the straddle, I would like this line but given the circumstance i just dont see it.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    I think it's close, and with villain's description I might call the turn. The decision is very read dependant, so it's hard to give an opinion without having been at the table. But if he's spewy and aggro, he can do this with worse hands (flush draws, KdXd. etc.).
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    So what about a bet/3bet line on the flop? good, bad, spew? Do i really want to get $1500 in on the flop here? I know its a straddled pot but most dont adjust and still view it as 300BB's even though its really only 150.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    You dont have the Ad so in villains range is also Ax diamonds.. Have you seen this guy play his flush draws aggressively? Would he play Kx dias this way.. You have him rather crushed in that spot. K4, K8 84 are not in most players ranges so two pair unlikely.. So his range is

    Ax dias, Kx dias, 67dd, 57dd, 88, 44,, KQ, KJ, and maybe KT..

    I wonder what your equity is against that range.. well lets see.. I put in one combo of 84 os and 1 combo of 84 suited.. half the KQ os and half the KJ os combos.. all the 88 and 44 combos and Kx suited to K8 and all the Ax combos except AK and AQ since I dont he would have limped with those..

    We are 49.5 % vs his range.. wow thats pretty close.. guess we ship it.?

    ww
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    Thehammah said

    You dont have the Ad so in villains range is also Ax diamonds.. Have you seen this guy play his flush draws aggressively? Would he play Kx dias this way.. You have him rather crushed in that spot. K4, K8 84 are not in most players ranges so two pair unlikely.. So his range is

    Ax dias, Kx dias, 67dd, 57dd, 88, 44,, KQ, KJ, and maybe KT..

    I wonder what your equity is against that range.. well lets see.. I put in one combo of 84 os and 1 combo of 84 suited.. half the KQ os and half the KJ os combos.. all the 88 and 44 combos and Kx suited to K8 and all the Ax combos except AK and AQ since I dont he would have limped with those..

    We are 49.5 % vs his range.. wow thats pretty close.. guess we ship it.?

    ww
    That was the problem, the only flush draw i saw him play was a big combo draw and he played it passively. I also saw him slow play AA pre with just a call and then get hyper aggressive post. I am not saying that combo draws are not in his range, because they 100% are, I am just saying this was something playing back in my mind when i was considering 3betting the flop.

    If i did decide to bet/3bet the flop do you like a click back type raise to induce a spew shove?
  • BigOwl Posts: 80Member
    That was the problevm, the only flush draw i saw him play was a big combo draw and he played it passively.

    With this read I may fold to flop raise, and for sure I fold on turn. In bloated pots people tend to play pretty straight forward, and there aren't any likely 2 pair hands, or oesd's.
  • whatsyourplay? Posts: 752Member
    We had this discussion in other threads before, and I slowly get the impression that I am in the minority here, but I really hate bet/3betting the flop with this type of hand. I think it's either a call or a fold once he raises the flop.
    I know that in theory you should have a bet/3betting range, and it might apply online where more people play their draws agressively (and some might even think you are FOS if you 3bet this flop). But live is just so different.
    If we decide to 3bet the flop, we do so because villain will have a lot of draws/semibluffs in his range. For this reason, we basically have to call it off. But I doubt his semibluffing range is THAT wide OFTEN ENOUGH.
    I would rather call his raise on the flop with the intention of evaluating later streets (and often fold to either a bad turn card or a big turn barrel). My thinking is that he will shut down with some of his weaker hands / semibluffs once he gets called on the flop. Another big argument for only calling is that his equity with draws goes way down once the turn blanks. But once we really put our whole stack in the middle, we should expect to be super crushed by his range.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    whatsyourplay? said
    I would rather call his raise on the flop with the intention of evaluating later streets (and often fold to either a bad turn card or a big turn barrel).
    This line is very common and that's why I almost never check the turn after bluff raising flop cause people don't fold to flop c/r - they fold to turn barrel.
  • LOLshoveaments Posts: 10Member
    whatsyourplay? said

    We had this discussion in other threads before, and I slowly get the impression that I am in the minority here, but I really hate bet/3betting the flop with this type of hand. I think it's either a call or a fold once he raises the flop.
    I know that in theory you should have a bet/3betting range, and it might apply online where more people play their draws agressively (and some might even think you are FOS if you 3bet this flop). But live is just so different.
    If we decide to 3bet the flop, we do so because villain will have a lot of draws/semibluffs in his range. For this reason, we basically have to call it off. But I doubt his semibluffing range is THAT wide OFTEN ENOUGH.
    I would rather call his raise on the flop with the intention of evaluating later streets (and often fold to either a bad turn card or a big turn barrel). My thinking is that he will shut down with some of his weaker hands / semibluffs once he gets called on the flop. Another big argument for only calling is that his equity with draws goes way down once the turn blanks. But once we really put our whole stack in the middle, we should expect to be super crushed by his range.
    I agree. Bet/3betting flop is suuuper marginal here. This line says you are playing for stacks and I think we are behind more often than not if the money ends up going in.
  • Collecting_Tax Posts: 177Subscriber
    TDF said
    whatsyourplay? said
    I would rather call his raise on the flop with the intention of evaluating later streets (and often fold to either a bad turn card or a big turn barrel).
    This line is very common and that's why I almost never check the turn after bluff raising flop cause people don't fold to flop c/r - they fold to turn barrel.
    So you are shipping turn in this spot or calling down?
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    JonMcFarland said
    So you are shipping turn in this spot or calling down?
    I'm folding flop almost always but only because my competition is not c/r bluffing often enough to exploit my folding. In exceptional cases when I give a ton of respect to villain I'm calling flop and shipping turn.
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