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Bonus for all Subscribers: Top Section Poker Podcast No. 1: Picking Overbet Spots

AdministratorAdministrator Posts: 747Administrator
edited January 2016 in Crush Live Poker podcast
This is a free bonus for all current CLP subscribers, the premier "Top Section" podcast episode with David Chan and Conlan Ma. Future episodes will be available only to those who subscribe to the recently added Professional tier.

In the premier of the Top Section Podcast David and Conlan talk about many advanced concepts, focusing on good spots to overbet and discussing strategies when facing overbets.

http://www.CrushLivePoker.com/podcasts/bonus-for-all-subscribers-top-section-poker-podcast-no.-1-picking-overbet-s

Episode posts at 2PM ET
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Comments

  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    The link isn't working for me. I get the "oops" "bad URL" error.
  • AdministratorAdministrator Posts: 747Administrator
    AJoff said:
    The link isn't working for me. I get the "oops" "bad URL" error.
    "Episode posts at 2PM ET"
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    Administrator said:


    "Episode posts at 2PM ET"
    Strong reading comprehension on my part.

    I listened to part of it last night.
  • dontfeedthenits Posts: 396Subscriber
    edited January 2016
    In the kings hand in top section episode one, conlan check/calls on the T 8 3 flop with KK (no heart), brushing it off as 'standard'

    This makes me wonder... Why is a check/call standard here? Why not a small C/R for value?
  • AdministratorAdministrator Posts: 747Administrator
    edited January 2016
    If anyone wishes to subscribe to Top Section, go to your member profile page by clicking on your name at the top of the website, and then click on Manage Subscription then click on Change Subscription

    If you do not see that button, you have an older subscription that uses a deprecated billing system, and should contact us by clicking on the (?) icon in the bottom-right corner of the website.
  • ConlanMa Posts: 181Pro
    edited January 2016
    The reason why you wouldn't put in a craise for value here is twofold: 1) No value against his range 2) Range protection (to a lesser extent). In the podcast, we assumed the villain has a fairly polarized range when 3 betting (i.e. JJ+, AK+ and a ton of Ax/Kx suited and a few suited connected hands). The only semi bluff hands that still has a ton of equity against our hand in our spot is AhKx. Also, from a range protection standpoint, if the villain plays well (which this one does) and finds out we're taking medium strength hands like KK and raising them, then we really have no good hands to call turn with and he can freely double barrel. This is obv. a major adjustment we make when playing higher stakes games where villains will bluff more and call less (to bluff catch).

    Another way to conceptualize this is what do you think our opponent gets to this flop with and how does 1) your range interact with his range 2) your specific hand against his range. In this case, KK is a very medium strength hand on this flop against our villains 3bet/bet flop range. We do a poor job blocking any of his value range, and actually block a good portion of his semi bluffs (AhKx). His pure air has actually very little equity and we want these hands to continue. Therefore, I think the best choice here is to check call flop.
  • Philipp Posts: 55Subscriber
    It doesnt work. Even though i did subscribe i only get a 5 min sample??
  • AdministratorAdministrator Posts: 747Administrator
    Philipp said:
    It doesnt work. Even though i did subscribe i only get a 5 min sample??
    You're all set now, sorry about that.
  • Philipp Posts: 55Subscriber
    Thx!
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,298Pro
    RE the "when to use GTO" parts. You guys know GTO is not just a synonym for balance right? Or are you suggesting you somehow calculated the GTO optimal solution in your head and then were able to randomly select the decision option.
  • ConlanMa Posts: 181Pro
    Balance is the result of a GTO strategy. What I'm assuming is that my opponent is trying to play optimally - this means that he is adding bluffs into his range to maximize the value of his value hands (and trying to make us indifferent to calling or folding). In game, what that means is that the hero can make profitable calls given villain is bluffing some percentage of the time. It's a guessing game what % and hands our opponent is bluffing with and which hands we should bluff catch with. I don't profess to know exactly what those are in game but I can make a guess given the info I have.

    If our opponent is not playing optimally (I.e. Not choosing to bluff in this spot) then we can exploit and fold obv.

    The point of the example was to illustrate that there are certain spots in live poker where David and I believe our opponents aren't bluffing enough and there are others where we need to consider playing closer to a GTO strategy (making calling or raising profitable).



  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,298Pro
    Perhaps I am too much of a semantics nit but I think people throw around GTO when they really ought out to use a more specific term. As I am sure you know there are plenty of GTO solutions that are widely unbalanced.

    I agree that there are many points in the game when people are not bluffing enough, I just dont agree that anyone in live poker is ever figuring out the GTO strategy when the villains are better balanced. It seems more accurate to just say there are plenty of bluffs in his range so our decisions have to be balanced so that we cant be exploited. Balancing in the case of the first hand you went over is a better strategy but its really unlikely you know the equilibrium strategy nor is calculating GTO a reasonable goal in live poker.

    Semantics nit view: jargon is dangerous as for many it leads to lazy thinking or inaccurate preconceptions. While I know you dont use these terms lightly and have a solid background in the math, your listeners will likely not have as deep a background making it more likely they will misapply or overuse the term. The long description you gave in your first paragraph is much better then just saying GTO.
  • ConlanMa Posts: 181Pro
    I think you bring up some good points - it is likely impossible to come up with a GTO strategy on the fly and is probably unreasonable to expect our villains devise optimal strategies while playing. Regarding the jargon - I'm simply using GTO in a context of when we think an opponent is *trying* to play optimally and thus mixing in what he/she thinks is the right combination of bluffs vs. value. It is likely neither of us are truly playing GTO and may be making mistakes. We're simply making the best decision we can given incomplete information. Whether it is dangerous to use this simplification or terminology is up for debate.

    GTO is a very misunderstood concept and requires a much more in-depth discussion. In a future podcast, I think we'll take a deeper dive into GTO and provide context to our discussions. Suggestions welcome :)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,083SubscriberProfessional
    So do you guys prefer the overbet semi bluff spot more than say a turn check raise as a semi bluff?

    I was curious about this simply because the check raise in theory should get more folds.. but depending on what villain does it could be more expensive and wouldnt work if villain doesnt bet turn either..

    ww
  • ConlanMa Posts: 181Pro
    Two reasons why I prefer betting:

    1) I don't expect villains to bet all their single pair hands on the turn and you are highly incentivized to fold these.
    2) Checkraising could be expensive (as you pointed out) and you start to rep an even more narrow range depending on villains sizing on the turn (in which case you may not get as many folds).
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,298Pro
    Conlan

    A GTO discussion would be a good contribution.

    You have been around for a while and probably remember that people did not start balancing their ranges because they were trying to be GTO. I suspect that even today 80% of great live players that balance could not define GTO and if you had asked them 5 years ago, 99% would have never even heard the term. But balancing is something that you can figure out and understand as a stand alone concept so why confuse it?

    Good players figure out that they have to have a range of actions just as much as they need a range of hands and by mixing it up they are harder to play against. AKA balance. Figuring out how and when to balance is easier IMO if its not confused with the dream idea of GTO play.
  • PocketAceTrader782 Posts: 439Subscriber
    The was an excellent Podcast!!

    Carmine
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    Thehammah said:
    So do you guys prefer the overbet semi bluff spot more than say a turn check raise as a semi bluff?

    I was curious about this simply because the check raise in theory should get more folds.. but depending on what villain does it could be more expensive and wouldnt work if villain doesnt bet turn either..

    ww
    Wendy, I do think that the turn overbet semi-bluff spot is better than a turn CR semibluff because Villain probably does not have a 100% turn betting frequency... Even with a hand like KQ (2nd pair+gutter). So if we go for a turn CR, we are going to whiff it sometimes/occasionally against some of stronger 1 pair hands that may decide to check back turn. We are also going to whiff it sometimes/often against small pocket pairs that may also decide to check it down.

    In these situations where Villain has some frequency of checking back turn with SDV (whether it be stronger 1 pair hands like KQ or very weak 1 pair hands like small pocket pairs), we would prefer to overbet ourselves because we can't rely on Villain betting turn with 100% frequency (or close to 100% frequency) with those aforementioned hands.

    Against Villains who always/almost always bet pair+gutshot on turn and/or always/almost always delayed cbet bluff air/underpaurs on turn after checking back flop, turn CR bluff can definitely be more profitable than a turn overbet semibluff (assuming Villain has a fold button).
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    We will talk in the future on delayed turn CR and how it can be a very effective tool against Villains who often check back flop to bet turn with a range of TP/2nd pair/3rd pair hands and/or delayed cbet air bluffs.

    Villains who have put a lot of hands in their Check Back Flop/Bet Turn Range will be good targets for turn CRs because they have high frequencies for betting turn after checking flop.
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    Listened to it yesterday morning. Immediately after had my biggest winning 2/5 session ever. Coincidentally, also ran like god. Considering investing into subscription for advice value as well as rungood.
    Would have won even more but failed to pull the trigger on a big gto call after totally setting up a guy to barrel off stack on the last significant hand played.
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