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10/20/(40) NL: Faceup Range? What to Do?

DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
I saw this interesting hand go down in a straddled pot at 10/20(40 straddle) NL. It was a spot where one very good player's range was pretty faceup facing heavy action against another very good player.

10/20 NL with an UTG straddle. 7k effective. 72 game is being played as well ($100 bonus from each of the other players if someone shows 72 while taking down a pot).

10/20/40, 7k effective.
HJ (very good somewhat tight preflop TAG pro who can execute big plays) opens $130, good tight TAG who doesn't get too out of line in big pots $450 SB, and another very good pro calls UTG straddle, HJ overcalls. $1370 in pot.

($1370) Flop 7c5s3h, one heart. SB cbets $530, straddle calls, HJ raises $1500. SB folds...

What do we think is the straddle's range is for getting to this spot? And what do we think the HJ's range is for raising flop here in a 3bet pot if he is hand-reading the straddle well?

I will delve deeper into the hand after get some preliminary discussion going about ranges on the flop.

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    Straddler probably has I think alot of pocket pairs say 9s and below.. although you did not describe UTG at all.

    HJ can have hands like middle pocket pairs, big aces and in this spot maybe even a hand like small or middle suited connectors. So he can have hands like pairs and straight draws.. This is a great spot for a squeeze play to get sb and straddle to fold almost any hand except sets..

    SB wouldnt have many sets if any on this flop and would be hard pressed to call with an overpair. Straddler has more sets but he didnt raise the flop and given no other information as the HJ I would think he has a hand like 44 or 66 ie pair plus straight draw.. obviously two pair not really in his range with the preflop action.

    So the question is would HJ raise and call with a hand like 76 suited or 65 suited or 68 suited??? I do.. raising to $130 from late position would be pretty standard if you have this in your opening range. then overcalling the small 3 bet would also be pretty standard given stack depth.

    So.. can SB be raising here with 77s? probably not.. given description and I doubt many players would 3bet oop with any of these pairs..

    also if HJ is capable of having 72 then this is also a perfect spot to raise to get the sb off a better pair.. I think HJ probably has straddler beat unless straddler is sandbagging a set. HJ range includes hands that hit this board pretty hard where the other two do not.

    ww
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    I think that I should give more info about the straddler.

    The UTG straddler is a very good pro who has a decent amount of respect for the SB pro and a lot of respect for the HJ pro.

    IMHO, this makes it less likely that the UTG straddler would "set mine" pre by cold calling a small psir like 22-77. He wouldn't think that he has the necessary implied odds to win the msximum when he binks a set (because SB and HJ can make discplined laydowns with overpairs even if they ended up having overpairs). He would also be worried that he could get blown off unimproved pairs easily too because he thinks that SB and especially HJ are competent at barreling. Finally, UTG straddler understands that he isn't closing the action because there is a non-zero chance that the HJ PFR 4bets after UTG straddler cold calls.

    Therefore, I think that the UTG straddler's range is somewhat tight for cold calling the 3bet here simply because of his respect for the other players' skill levels.

    With that said, I dom't think that the UTG straddler's range is nitty either for cold calling the 3bet. He understands that the HJ could have a wide open-raising range, and he alsp understands that SB could have a wide 3bet range versus a HJ open. There is also the considerstion that the 72 game is on, so there is a higber chance that HJ is steal-raising and/or SB is 3bet bluffing.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    straddler cant have 72 he he.. so given more info on straddler then he can also have hands like AJ+ and even bigger pairs but not maybe JJ-AA
  • ConlanMa Posts: 181Pro
    We can have a discussion about this but in a tough lineup and in a spot where ranges are wide, I like 4 betting hands I'm planning to vpip in. My range for this spot might be 1010-AA, AK mixed in with a few bluffs. Flatting in this spot gets you in a spot where your range is well defined and you open yourself up to getting 4 bet squeezed pre or in spots like this on the flop.

    I can see a strategy where you are flatting your entire range pre if your opponents are squeeze happy but you may also get owned on certain flops - I would like that strat better if you are 100bb deep where you are almost always going broke with the top of your range against good villains.

    I'll comment on the specific hand later but just food for thought on preflop play.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    Conlan,

    I think that you made a very good point. In this same 10/20/(40) NL game, I had a very similar spot come up where I was in BB with JJ facing a CO open and a BTN 3bet ahead of me. I ended up 4betting my JJ to take the pot down because I am not a big fan of cold calling.

    It is also probably easier to balance a 4bet range too because you can have some bluffs when you 4bet.(especially in this case where 72 is in the back of everyone's minds)
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    IMHO, the UTG straddle's range looks a lot like 99-QQ, some KK that didn't 4bet, AQ+. I think there would be some frequency of the UTG straddler 4bettng KK for value, and I think that UTG straddle would definitely 4bet AA for value. Because the HJ PFR is a very good pro (which means that there is no upside and some downside to allowing HJ to overcall with POSITION/good pot odds), I don't see much reason for the UTG straddle to slowplay AA by just flatting the SB's 3bet.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Now let's analyze the HJ's range for getting to this spot.

    I think that the HJ could be opening all pairs 22+, all SCs 54s+, all SGs 64s+, and all AX suited A3s+. Maybe he opens 53s SG occasionally. Given that stacks are deep and because HJ is gettng good pot odds while closing the preflop action IN POSITION, I think that HJ could be overcalling the 3bet with 54s+, 64s+, A3s-A5s, and all pairs up to QQ...as well as the occasional 53s.

    When the HJ raises this 753r flop over the SB PF3bettor's cbet and UTG straddle's call, HJ is repping a value range of 33/55/77 (9 combos of sets), 64s (4 combos of straights), 75s (3 combos of top 2 pair), occasional 53s (1 combo of bottom 2 pair). There is also some chance that HJ could be raising flop with slowplayed QQ. In any case, HJ is definirtely repping 17 value combos of 2pair+.

    How many bluffs can HJ have here? I think that HJ will only be bluffing with decent equity here against likely overpairs. So I would include the following strong draws in his definite bluff raise range: flopped pair+gutshot (76s/54s 6 combos), A4s 4 combos (double gutshot draw+Ace overcard draw. He might also include other weaker equity hands in his flop bluff raise range at some frequency: 72 TPWK (16 combos), 87s TP with BDFD (2 combos), 97s TP with BDFD (2 combos), A5s middle pair with BDFD (2 combos), A3s bottom pair with BDFD (2 combos).

    Remember that we need to include 72 in the analysis because there is a $800 bonus for whomever wins a hand with 72.

    So the HJ's bluff raising range can be as large as 32 combos if he is bluff-raising at 100% frequency will all those hands, but HJ may not be bluff-raising all those hands with 100% frequency.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Given that the UTG straddle is getting a good price, I think that calling the flop raise seems deceptively +EV. The problem is what happens often on the turn. HJ is very good pro who is not scared to unload the clip) s likely shoving a blank turn with all his flop semi-bluffs.

    So UTG straddle would be risking $970 more now and likely $5k more on the turn on a bluff catch.

    What do you guys think UTG straddle's calling range should be on flop/turn assuming that UTG straddle doesn't improvw on the turn? On what turn cards should UTG straddle be more willing to call down, and on what turn cards should UTG straddle be more willing to fold?
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited February 2016
    about preflop: in a normal game it might be a good idea for the UTG straddler to either have no 4betting range or no calling range here. calling only QQ-TT and AQ+ is not a good idea against two really good pros. since the 72o game is on, I want to have a 4bet range so I probably would either fold or 4bet in that spot.

    AP, OTF I put UTG mainly on 99-QQ and some suited connectors. suited connectors are the better choice to continue on against a raise.
    this is either a fold on the flop or a calldown on most runouts. for overpairs, any card T or higher is pretty good (Ace is medium I would say). board pairing is okay (3 is best, 7 worst) and 4 or 6 are very bad. a deuce is one of the best cards as well.

    BTW 5bb from every player for 72o is ridicolous (and great fun :D) . the good players will play 72o from any position against almost any action pre. they should 3,4 and 5bet probably all the time so the game should be pretty agressive overall which will force players to calldown lighter in all kind of spots.

    david/conlan:

    do you think there is merit in chosing a different preflop raising size with the 72 game on? like 5-10bb and do it with your nut hands as well (and maybe even hands where you wanna get headsup anyways like medium pockets). I mean it's pretty hard to call a 10bb raise with trash only because the 72 game is on...

    this can just get such a sick levelling game...
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    I think there is a lot of merit to raising to a larger standard preflop sizing because the 72 is on.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    @maphacks,

    If you are UTG straddle and holding 99-QQ and the occasional KK, what is your plan against this flop raise after SB folds?

    Are you continuing with 100% of your overpairs? Are you folding 100% of your overpairs? Are you calling with some of them and folding some of them? Please explain your thought process for deciding what your continuing range should be.

    I would also be interested in the thoughts of other Top Section subscribers regarding what our continuing ranges should be.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    If we flip things around, what fo you think the optimal flop raising range is for the HJ? Basically, I am asking how many (if any) bluff combos should HJ have in his flop raising range in addition to his value raising range? And what specific combos should be built into that bluff raising range?

    I gave a little preview to what HJ flop raising range could be in an earlier post, but I think that there is a very good thought process that shoulf be used when thinking about these spots conceptually...even if we don't necessarily use it in the heat of the moment. If we do the heavy lifting away from the table, we can get a good grasp on how to construct our ranges in the future when we see a similar spot.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    In a related note to preflop play, what do you think about SB's 3bet versus the very good HJ pro?

    Should we be 3betting much SB vs the very good HJ pro when stacks are deep? My opinion is that 3betting OOP from SB deep stacked versus a very good pro is not so fun... Especially in a straddled pot where there are 2 players (BB/straddle) who could wake up with good hands behind us.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    DavidChan said:
    @maphacks,

    If you are UTG straddle and holding 99-QQ and the occasional KK, what is your plan against this flop raise after SB folds?

    Are you continuing with 100% of your overpairs? Are you folding 100% of your overpairs? Are you calling with some of them and folding some of them? Please explain your thought process for deciding what your continuing range should be.

    I would also be interested in the thoughts of other Top Section subscribers regarding what our continuing ranges should be.
    I might call down with some of them. I think my calldown range would be some QQ/JJ combos, a few suited connectors and since I flat every set and two pair against the cbet, call down with them as well.

    if the 72 wasn't on I don't think I have any suited connectors in my range. not even sure if it is a good idea here. As I said I prefer a 4bet only strategy in that spot.

    the 72 game makes it a bit harder to fold in general.

    even though GTO wouldn't suggest doing so, I would probably overfold the flop, underfold the turn and underfold the river.

    In HJ spot I would overbluff this flop with that spr. pretty much every hand better than OESD.

    would you agree that overbluffing is good here due to mainly due to spr and range advantage?

    I also think it highly depends on how ppl react to the 72 rule.

  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    would be interesting to put this in cardrunners EV or snowie and see how much we are allowed to bluff in HJs spot from a GTO perspective.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I typically wouldn't 3bet a lot under normal circumstances deepstacked oop vs a top pro. but again 72 rule changes things. I don't have a lot of experience playing 72 but it might be a good idea to 3bet super polarized and to a very large size. like only QQ+,AK and all 72. maybe make it like 6x or so. just crossed my mind...
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    @maphacks, I am not sure that SCs are good for cold calling a 3bet here. We are against 2 good/very good pros, and we have pretty bad position (terrible RELATIVE and mediocre ABSOLUTE). Not only that, we are not closing the action. Based off skill disadvantage/positional disadvantage considerations, I think that our cold calling range would have to be tight to overcome those factors.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited February 2016
    well that's basically what I said :)

    I think we can call any pocket though, don't you think?
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    maphacks said:
    well that's basically what I said :)

    I think we can call any pocket though, don't you think?
    While I might nit it up by folding thr lowest pairs just because of being OOP to very skilled Villains without evwn closing the action, we should certainly consider VPIPing pairs (I might 4bet or fold low pairs)
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