Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

The Grind Poker Podcast No.2: Checking Ego and Dealing with Recreational Players

Craig Posts: 756Administrator
edited February 2016 in The Grind poker podcast
In the second episode, host Rob Farha talks about ego issues that trouble lower stakes players, as well as how to approach recreational players.

Episode post at 11AM PT.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/checking-ego-and-dealing-with-recreational-players
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    edited February 2016
    Absolutely this podcast, such a great addition to balance out the strat on CLP, imo.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,077AdministratorLeadPro
    edited February 2016
    Indeed, I've run across this type of BS talk so much at the table during day games at the Commerce. I feel like a lot of guys who are in their 20s with less than 5 years of live experience just don't understand how to be a "professional" when it comes to poker. Nicely thought out Rob.

    Bart
  • GonzoPokerGonzoPoker Posts: 38Subscriber
    I think Bart and Rob are right I run into this conversation in my room quite a bit and it seems that the guys are in their 20s .
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    khalwat said:
    Absolutely this podcast, such a great addition to balance out the strat on CLP, imo.
    Thank you :)
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    edited February 2016
    GonzoPoker said:
    I think Bart and Rob are right I run into this conversation in my room quite a bit and it seems that the guys are in their 20s .
    I would agree that the majority of guys guilty of this are young and inexperienced in live poker. I don't think it's exclusive because I've seen it from older, more experienced people and also even from female pro players. It's a person thing, not really a gender/age thing. People get frustrated sometimes and lash out at weaker players without really thinking. Any competition (especially one that involves winning and losing large sums of money) is going to make people angry when stuff doesn't go their way. It's a cringeworthy thing to watch from people who should know better imo.

    Be. Nice. To. Recreational. Players.

    I actually haven't encountered a ton of that in my LA experiences, guess I've been lucky. I also don't know anyone there so people aren't randomly starting strategy discussions with me. I've seen it a lot more when I was playing on the east coast at Foxwoods/Borgata though.

    Another pet peeve is when people come and ask me "is this game good" openly. As if I should respond "yeah, these guys all suck... come on over". Really lacking awareness imo.
  • GonzoPokerGonzoPoker Posts: 38Subscriber
    I agree with Rob third ego should not play a role at the table but away from the table I feel that it can be a driving force for self-improvement thanks again Rob good work
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    interesting point about the ABC tag vs bad lag player types. I tend to agree that the tag player has a higher true win rate and most of fancy lag plays are breakeven at best. I also agree the bad lag's flaws center around ego (win every pot mentality) and a lack of respect for their opponents' thought process. What do you think is holding the ABC tag player back? Surely, these players are leaving money on the table by not exploiting the other ABC tag players and adding balancing wrinkles against top competition. DGAF has written a lot about how the culmination of downswings irons out players creativity and courage for making higher variance plays. Limon tends to focus on lack of mental horsepower and attention to detail. I am curious to hear your take.

    Thanks. I've been a fan of your PGC for a while and am liking the podcast so far.
  • mythomaniac Posts: 284Subscriber
    edited February 2016
    I've had a similar experience to having cards thrown in my face, I flatted AA in the field and a woman who was in town with her husband for a few days made this animated motion and said she needed a moment to think, then she says "OK, I'm all in." She ships a $600 stack (this is the cap at the time) and it gets folded back to me and I call and scoop the pot. The woman says "well, that's what you do with pocket jacks, you either fold or you go all in." Obviously, in a cash game, that's ludicrous and she had been showing people the WSOP pics she had taken on her trips to LV so I ascertained she was more of a tournament player. She was drinking throughout the entire session and mentioned she was going to punch my stack because she didn't like how I stacked my chips and sure enough, she punches the middle of my stack and my chips crumble down. The whole table gets quiet and I just sat there and took it. Ten minutes later, she did it again and I said OK, fine, I'm playing like this from now on! With a smirk and she laughed. If she is going to punt off $600 to me, I'll play with my chips unstacked :).

    Regarding the talk about good players, I find that I'm shhhing some of the regs in my room because they'll start talking about how someone could have played the hand better and while recreational players talking to each other is fine because I get a glimpse into their flawed thought process, when a reg says "oh you could have just bet-folded there" I want to smack them.

    Personally, I don't talk much during my sessions because my attention span isn't that great at holding a conversation and covering the action. Also, I wear sweat pants and sweat shirts to my sessions because I want to be comfortable but I rarely put my hood up and I don't have a backpack. Tons of recreational players wear this outfit as well. As a result, from recreational players and semi-serious players alike, I get asked on a weekly basis "do you play here every day" or "so you play full time?" I try and engage everyone at the table and greet people when they sit down and I don't make poker talk but I just don't know what to do about people viewing me for what I am, a serious poker player.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    I'm not sure I would have taken the same approach Myth. Protecting your chips seems like a reasonable boundary. I try to think of myself as a minny casino. Blackjack dealers will take a ton of abuse, but if you reach into their chip tray you are getting kicked out.
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    edited February 2016
    AJoff said:
    interesting point about the ABC tag vs bad lag player types. I tend to agree that the tag player has a higher true win rate and most of fancy lag plays are breakeven at best. I also agree the bad lag's flaws center around ego (win every pot mentality) and a lack of respect for their opponents' thought process. What do you think is holding the ABC tag player back? Surely, these players are leaving money on the table by not exploiting the other ABC tag players and adding balancing wrinkles against top competition. DGAF has written a lot about how the culmination of downswings irons out players creativity and courage for making higher variance plays. Limon tends to focus on lack of mental horsepower and attention to detail. I am curious to hear your take.

    Thanks. I've been a fan of your PGC for a while and am liking the podcast so far.
    Interesting question. For one, when I'm referencing ABC players that are solid winners, these are guys that don't tilt, don't make gigantic mistakes, and fundamentally most important they value bet very well. Playing well vs rec players is where most of the money comes from in LLSNL, these guys stay afloat by doing that very well.

    If they aren't value betting well, that's the number one thing to improve on. If they are value betting well -

    There's lot of stuff you can do to expand beyond ABC. One of the biggest adjustments I have made after playing online is being cognizant of my check/call range. When I'm playing against observant opponents I don't ever want to be in a situation where my action or bet sizing is indicative of "Rob always check folds here" or "Rob always has a big hand here". I try to stay away from talking about that stuff when coaching, because in all honesty a lot of people will misapply those concepts. You don't need to always barrel your bluffs for balance. Live poker tends to play straightforwardly, so common sense trumps all. I don't like saying "bluff this for balance", because then people start bluffing in terrible spots with no fold equity just for the sake of balance.

    I am very aware of balance in my own game, but since a lot of live players seem to hate this concept (somewhat rightfully so) I'll just reference it as level 3 thinking (what does he think I have?). I always evaluate where I am in my own range and try and imagine what hands I get to this specific spot, on this specific board, vs this specific opponent with. Of course if it's a situation where my opponent has the nuts 100% (this happens a ton in live poker), then my own hand doesn't really matter.

    So against better regulars I don't just blindly bet and barrel, I'm aware of what my own betting range/checkcall/checkraise/checkfold range looks like. People often forget about the check fold range, especially on ace high boards (I'll just cbet 100% and if he doesn't have an A he folds!). This thinking is fine against weak players, but against regs who see you cbet and then always c/f when you ck turn, it's exploitable and you've put yourself in a bad spot by being unbalanced.

    If we flip the spots, I also don't just blindly fold without an A on A high boards against people who make those mistakes. Again, you need reads and this is all situation dependent. Even on a board like A95r when I face a cbet, I always think about my own range and how much I'm folding vs calling (don't raise too often there). I don't just autopilot fold everything that's not an A.

    These are little examples of stuff I see standard TAGs (that are solid winners) do wrong. Can't stress enough the bread and butter of poker is playing well vs fish, not balancing your turn checks against regs.

    I hope that somewhat answers it.
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    edited February 2016
    mythomaniac said:
    I've had a similar experience
    That seriously might be worse than mine. I think you handled it well, if it continued again I would probably be inclined to stand up for myself. That's a tougher spot than mine I think. It's good that you kept your cool and realized this lady is just there to dump money.
    mythomaniac said:

    Regarding the talk about good players, I find that I'm shhhing some of the regs in my room because they'll start talking about how someone could have played the hand better and while recreational players talking to each other is fine because I get a glimpse into their flawed thought process, when a reg says "oh you could have just bet-folded there" I want to smack them.

    Personally, I don't talk much during my sessions because my attention span isn't that great at holding a conversation and covering the action. Also, I wear sweat pants and sweat shirts to my sessions because I want to be comfortable but I rarely put my hood up and I don't have a backpack. Tons of recreational players wear this outfit as well. As a result, from recreational players and semi-serious players alike, I get asked on a weekly basis "do you play here every day" or "so you play full time?" I try and engage everyone at the table and greet people when they sit down and I don't make poker talk but I just don't know what to do about people viewing me for what I am, a serious poker player.
    Lol, interesting you bring up the fact you wear sweat pants.

    Last year I went through a phase (I guess?) where I chose to wear nice button downs and dress really well to the casino. Ultimately, people still asked me the same questions they asked you. I'm 25, I'm inevitably chip shuffling and they can tell after a little while I know what's going on around me. I also left my backpack at home for a while, but for the same reason I stopped dressing nicely, I bring my backpack to the casino again - it really doesn't matter. They know.

    People know what poker pros look and act like, it's a tough thing to accomplish. The other guy mentioned DGAF and I must admit he's probably the best at coming off as a non-serious poker player.

    As long as you're nice to people, make some small talk about sports or whatever, you're fine. A lot of poker pros view their job with a hitman/contract killer like seriousness and that is what I think is bad for the game. Being friendly and taking your losses well is a lot more important than what we choose to wear, if you're comfortable, be comfortable imo.
  • FL250 Posts: 5Subscriber
    I love this podcast and I totally agree that you should not be ego driven when playing. However, the natural consequence of focusing on solid play and fundamentals will be a higher win rate, which leads to many ego nourishing side benefits. If you are a consistent and solid winner in your game you will naturally earn the respect of those in your player pool. In this way, you are fulfilling the requirements of ego without being driven by it. I've heard may people tell me, "Don't chase money. Do what you love and the money will come". We can transpose this idea by saying...In poker, we should do what is profitable and the ego will take care of itself. If we focus on being smart and solid in our game we will naturally reap the hard earned benefits of success, including having our ego fed. I write this because ego and pride, although sometimes harmful, can be a huge motivating force for learning and working to improve your craft. I also believe that when you work hard towards a goal, you deserve the spoils of success....Money, respect and even a little ego bump.
  • Philipp Posts: 55Subscriber
    Rob, i have a slightly off topic question.
    What do you think: how many hours of live cash at a stake is starting to be a decent smaple size regarding hourly win rate?
    Thx!
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    edited February 2016
    Philipp said:
    Rob, i have a slightly off topic question.
    What do you think: how many hours of live cash at a stake is starting to be a decent smaple size regarding hourly win rate?
    Thx!
    I would say around 750. I often read that anything under 2k hours is "useless" which I completely disagree with. Of course variance plays a factor in a limited sample, (our live samples are always really small), but I think 750hrs can give you a feel of whether you're breakeven-ish, small winner, big winner, small loser, big loser etc.

    Of course it's not going to be precise, because our game should also always be changing. Even in my sample, the last 2k hours I feel like I'm drastically better than I was in the previous 2k hours. It'll never be super precise.

    Ideally you would want more but I think 750 hours can give you a realistic feel for where you're at in the game.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited February 2016
    How many hours of live NLHE have you played sonce quitting your job 4 years ago? And how many hours have you played in 2015-2016?

    As you said, it is hard to gauge meaningful information unless you have a large sample size from recent play because the live NLHE landscape changes a lot (over the course of a year a lot of regs and recs come and go through most player pools).
  • Philipp Posts: 55Subscriber
    Okay cool that does give me a direction. Thx!
    @chan: you are talking to rob right?
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    Yes, my question was directed @RobFarha because he was talking about your question in the context of his live NLHE experience.
  • HavaxHavax Posts: 65Subscriber
    Rob could you expand on being nice to rec players? I am very nice to all the rec fish in the player pool but have often found that I'm so nice to them that they "friend zone" me and stay out of my way and sometimes try to soft play me. I never soft play them but they kind of go out of their way to not get involved with me. This isn't all the time, but I've noticed this dynamic. So any tips to bridge the gap by being nice to them but keeping a gambling relationship between us and the rec players?
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    DavidChan said:
    Yes, my question was directed @RobFarha because he was talking about your question in the context of his live NLHE experience.
    Between 6 and 7,000 live hours. I lost my old Iphone with all my east coast hours + first year in Vegas on it (which I know you're aware of) but I'm positive those hours add up to that figure.

  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    Havax said:
    Rob could you expand on being nice to rec players? I am very nice to all the rec fish in the player pool but have often found that I'm so nice to them that they "friend zone" me and stay out of my way and sometimes try to soft play me. I never soft play them but they kind of go out of their way to not get involved with me. This isn't all the time, but I've noticed this dynamic. So any tips to bridge the gap by being nice to them but keeping a gambling relationship between us and the rec players?
    I think your mind is playing tricks on you. Unless you're seeing that they are folding top pair to your bet in spots that they basically never fold to other people, this soft play really isn't happening. Today I saw a guy check back a weak top pair and say "I'll be nice" to me, when he is just never valuebetting a hand that weak. He's not being "nice" to me, he's checking because that's how he plays. To put this in context, if he had top set, he would never in a million years "be nice" to me.

    I would be very clear in your discussions that you're not softplaying (without actually saying it), and just continue playing your game. One thing I would do I show them a bluff every once in a while or a hand that's towards the bottom of your raising range. I would only do this if it is an actual issue, which it may not be.

    Rec players tend to play very weak vs everyone, so I think it's somewhat likely your own mind is mistaking their weak play as softplaying you specifically.
    by 1Havax

Leave a Comment

bolditalicunderlinestrikecodeimageurlquotespoiler