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Frustrating Night

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I played last night at the Hustler and even though I was pretty tired they had a player appreciation bonus drawing each hour for $500 so I went. This was a mistake. I ended up playing too passively. It wasnt a total disaster but really made me angry at myself. Here are a couple of hands that I am not sure about and whether I would have played them differently if I wasnt as tired I am not sure..

Some backround.. first the casino was packed.. but an interesting phenomenon I think was at work.. it was packed with good players at the 5/5 game.. I think this could be equated to the wsop.. sucking up the good players and leaving a good player vacuum at other casinos.. When I played last weekend at the Bike there were four or five fish I was following.. Last night at the Bike there was 1.. ! fish for 5 5/5 games. All the rest were decent players that had accumulated points the previous month and were there trying to get that $500 bucks.. Is it really +EV to play in games like this? probably not..

Hand 1 vs the Nit

I had been at table for a couple of hours. The villain in this hand is a reg player that does this for a living and normally plays at the Bike. He is very tight.. I have only seen him raise one hand prior to this hand.. I am in late mp and I raise to 20 with TT.. I have 500 to start the hand and villain has a bit less but not that much less.. He calls from the button and we are heads up.

Flop QT8.. two hearts.. I bet 40 and he calls after hesitating a moment.. I thought he wanted to raise but then thought against it.. Pot 40+40+20+20+10 (blinds)=$130

Turn 6 d.. I decide that I have not been betting enough on the turn so I throw in one $100 chip.. He doesnt take too much time and ships it for 305 more.. I thought he might have had a Q on the flop when he hesitated but now I really torn.. What range do I put him on?

certainly both straights if he was suited he could have called with J9 or 79.. not all combos but some.. 88 for sure.. but what two pair hands could he have? Q8 not likely and the other involve the case ten so how can he have those.. So his range is rather narrow..

88, QQ if he flatted my raise.. J9, 79 and maybe one or two combos of Q8 AKhh and thats it.. One hand I crush and the rest I either need to pair up or have 1 out.. This guy is super tight so I folded after tanking for almost 2 min.. He never suggested calling a clock or anything. Afterwards I ran my equity and I was surprised that even against the range above I was just about 50/50.. very surprised.. What would you do? I mean if this was ANY other player at the table I would have beat him in the pot.. but nits just dont ship turn wo the nuts.. I sent a text message to Bart to confirm his read on this player since I am sure he has played with him for years. If he agrees that he is uber uber tight then I just not sure I can call.. but the equity calculations say I should...

I move tables a bit later because the ONLY fish was at another table and after a couple of hours this guy who looks very conservative comes to the table. I have played with him a bit but not that much.. Well he is a total lag player. playing against his physical appearance and I end up moving to get position on him because he has three bet either me or another player like three times in the last 30 min. I am card dead and dont have anything to fight back against other than a cold 4 bet and my hands are too in between for that.. either small pocket pairs or AT stuff like that.. I would prefer to cold 4 bet with say 67h.. but I am also tired so that of course is naturally making me more passive..

Well it would have it that I finally get a decent hand against him when I am in the sb.. he raises from the co to 20 and I have KQ dd.. I thought about three betting but I am not sure that is a great idea since I am sure he will call me in postion with almost his entire range.. so I am building a big pot and he floats and makes moves, etc... So I call and so does the bb..

Flop comes K 2 5 r... yeah I finally hit the flop.. I check so does the sb and he checks too.. That did put a little alarm bells on me but I thought that maybe he had a hand that had showdown value and me and the bb were the tightest players by far at the table..

turn T makeing KT hh.. I bet 25.. I am just realizing now just how small that is.. bb calls and now he raises to 80.. laggy can have anything from flush draw to pocket 6s.. I call and so does bb.. river 2.. I check (yeah I think this is also a mistake) bb check and now laggy bets 200.. What can he have?

I thought it really really likely he had a draw I call.. What do you guys think?

ok time to throw up! Embarassed



  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    First hand: I call. If he is such a nit why is he calling you with 97s with just 450ish in front of him? If he is a pro or reg grinder do you really think he is trying to make you think he will raise you on the flop when he flops the nuts or near nuts? Does he have such an obvious tell? Or does he do that move to make you think he was thinking of raising? Have you seen him make this obvious display of his intentions before and show the nuts? Most people that play that many hours know not to give simple obvious tells (unless they are false).

    Turn you say you toss in $100. Are you pot committed to the hand at this point? Did something make him afraid and he now just ships $300 into $300 to make you fold with your few outs (unless you think he somehow reads your soul and will make you fold the top of your range)? Really why does he ship?

    A. Because you will call with all the hands he beats because he has the nuts? But you didn't, you folded. So bad play with J9.

    B. He has J9/QQ and the pot is big enough and now he wants to take it down. Possible if he is a uber-nit. But then why give you a shot a winning on the turn when a Flush comes? Why not charge you? Nits are afraid of draws. If he had such a big hand, why not make a raise on the flop? "Got to get out the draws," is what he would be thinking.

    C. He has a strong hand, thinks he could be best but isn't sure. You showed some weakness and he shipped. Against this range you are very ahead (but he will still have outs). How about QJ? How about JTs with Hearts? etc.

    I snap call with a smile on my face. The pot is $300 and you have $300. If you call, and he has the nuts say "Wow, I though you had nothing, I called you with pocket nines! Nice play."

    Hand Two: The LAG checked the flop so he either has total air (with no backdoors) or a hand that could get himself in trouble (PP, Kx, bottom pair). Turn comes and you bet small, THERE IS A CALL! And he raises small!

    ALARM BELLS should be going off. He raised an overcaller! He is trying to bluff not just you but the overcaller! This is an advance play! I really doubt it. He has to have very strong reads to make a bluff here (and with such small pressure). He has value! Two pair, sets, but combos (but I don't know which 34s; but I would expect him to bet flop with that). He could have KT, TT or even KK.

    I'm not saying you must auto much here, it is just he is making a bold bluff... if he is capable then call and see.

    Remember what I said before in one of my post about being a LAG! We can adjust and you don't know it. We can be Tight too. When he got that overcall on his raise... it is a difficult and rare bluff to make (especially for just $200).

    He turned over a big, big hand.... KK, TT or even KT.... or is aggressive and thin and has AK. (I really have a hard time thinking he raises 34hh on turn, especially if he checks flop with it).

    Well those are my thoughts.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Hand 1 you're getting 2-1 so you basically need 33% equity. You have 22% equity if he shows you a straight face up. If he has anything else in his range (besides QQ) you have him killed. You'd think he'd have some frequency of 3betting QQ. 88 sets are much more likely than QQ sets, and 88 is drawing dead. So mix in a decent % of 88, QT, T8 and Q8 (if he's playing J9 or 97 he's playing QT and T8 and maybe Q8) and I'd assume you have calling odds.

    The first thing I do in those spots is figure out my equity vs the nuts. If my equity VS THE NUTS is relatively close to the odds I'm getting, you only have to add in a small spazz factor or small overplaying factor and calling is much easier.

    Hand 2 I guess the sizing throws it off on the turn but I'd still lean fold unless he's been showing lots of bluffs POSTFLOP. A lot of guys open super wide and play tons of hands but then play pretty straightforward post. Of course it helps if your turn bet doesn't look weak, but when you bet/call turn you really should have a made hand of some sort, so his river bet looks like it should be called. Unless this guy is really good or really crazy post, I'd just lean fold.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Hand 1: You're 100BB deep and you has set. There's nothing to think about except how to get your money in as quickly as possible.
    Hand 2: You have a bluffcatcher OTR. How often would he try to bluff two tight players off what looks like top pair?
    Also you should be happy if he calls your 3bet cause you're 3betting for value not as a bluff. KQ is ahead of his range and his positional advantage is diminished by lowered SPR.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Yep I think I pretty much messed up both hands.. BTW I didnt put in my range for Nit in Hand #1 of AA or KK and that changes my equity to around 75%.. pretty dumb.. I LOVE Pokerisfrustrating cheat whereas if my equity is close when I assume they have the nuts .. thats easy to calc in your head..

    well I dont know what he had in hand #1 but in Hand #2 he had quad 2s.. His check should have been much much bigger alarm bells because why would a laggy who has the option to bet NOT? because he has a monster.. lol. I didnt get the message.. I am very angry with my play there and just have to chock it up to why you dont play when you are really tired..

    Good news is I was very rested and played last night in chicago and won! yeah!

  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I suck at doing it at the table, but going back I've ran it through and it just smacked me in the face. I really give villains too much credit a lot of the time (especially if they're younger and appear competent) and I fold when I shouldn't.

    A lot of times I was treating my equity as zero when even a little equity can help. I'm sure most of you can do this but I worked it out on my own in case it's interesting.

    Like lets say I have aces on a J72 board and get shoved on. There's no straights or anything where I'm totally dead. A naked overpair has ~10% equity vs a set. We'll assume (for simplicity's sake) if he doesn't have a set he has Kj or something and he's drawing to 5 outs and we have ~80% equity.

    If villain has a set 75% of the time that's .75*.1 or .075. The 25% of the time he has TP we have .25*.8 or .2. Add them up and we get .275 or 27.5% equity! So we only need 2.6-1 if our our reads are correct, even though 75% of the time we're drawing to spike a higher set.
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